Calcium Carbonate

[MikeS]

Hi all

I've been experimenting with vinager boosted kalkwasser for several months now. I have noticed an increase in calcium carbonate scale buildup on my heater, glass, inside the powerheads, ect.

I thought one of the benefits of using vinager with kalk mix was to help prevent calcium carbonate crystalization. Yet I have seen an increase of this while using it.

Here are the specifics...I'm currently dosing 45ml of 5% white vinager in ratio to 3 tsp. of Mrs Wages pickling lime per 1 gallon RO/DI makeup water. I use baking soda and/or Kent ProBuffer to adjust my dKH. I dose about 1 gallon of this per day. I started at 10ml vinager and 2 tsp. Mrs Wages per gallon and have worked my way up to the current dosage...

My calcium usually tests between 370-410ppm. When it drops below 350, I use Kent Turbo Calcium to bring it back up. My alkalinity swings up and down, but is usually on the low side..1.7 to 2.5 meq/L. I have a difficult time getting it up above 2.5 for very long. My pH stays pretty constant, between 8.2-8.4.

My tank uses calcium pretty fast...I have a very large T Derasa, a large branching anchor, and several other LPS.

What am I doing wrong here? Too much vinager? Too much Kalk? Bad ratio?

Thanks for the help...

MikeS

 

[DonW]

Mike,
2 tsp per gallon is about all the useful kalk you going to get into the water. Vinegar does help it disolve a bit better but thats about it.
It just sounds like your system has out grown just kalk.
You need to get ca and alk where you want it first, make sure they are balanced numbers. Then dose balanced additives or get a ca reactor.
I would continue the kalk but stop using the vinegar, this will keep the ph up and youll use less additive. It just sound like you on a ca/alk see-saw. You add dkh it goes up ca goes downyou add ca it goes up dkh goes down.

Don

 

[MikeS]

Yeah, that's kind of what I'm experiencing.

I moved up to 3 tsp. kalk/gallon in the hope that the additional calcium would lenghten the time between additions of calcium chloride. I'm going to move back down to 2 tsp./30 ml. vinager per gallon. Any opnions on this ratio?

It seems I have always battled low alk in my tank. At first, the vinager boosted kalk seemed to help this, but I'm back to low alk numbers.

on the pH....my pH was always pretty high before I started using the vinager boosted kalk. So far, the more stable, lower (8.2-8.4) pH seems to be the only lasting positive effect.

I agree...kalk does not fully meet the needs of my tank, but it has been that way for a long time. That is one of the main reasons I began to experiment with vinager boosted kalk. As for calcium reactors, I'm still trying to scrape up enough $$$ to move the contents of my 55 to a larger tank and add MH to my lighting combo, so a reactor will probably not be a reality for me anytime soon.

In the meantime, I'd like to continue to use kalk. I don't mind adjusting the calcium from time to time with calcium chloride. The vinager boosted kalk does give me more time between adjustments, but I'm puzzled with the increased calcium carbonate buildup, and with the low alkalinity test results I'm getting. I was under the impression that vinager would help solve both problems.


MikeS

 

[cwcross]

I will try to help with this question later today, tonight or tomorrow. Very interesting. the poster who said more than 2 tsp's kalk was enough was right. Any more will just drop to the bottom. Here is a good link. Check out the resource library also:

http://advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2002/chem.htm

Collin

 

[DonW]

Mike,
As long as you see-saw your going to continue the low alk problems. Build up all over everthing is pretty normal. Are you adding it to a sump??

Find a realistic (not 450 ca) balanced set of number Sg Alk Ca (I use on-line calculators due to small brain).
Once you get to this target dont dose anything but kalk (no vinegar). Test daily or every other day to figure out your consumption. Once you have the consumption rate add BOTH ca and alk to match that rate. Mixing supplement products makes it difficult, use something like B-ionic or C-balance.
This should keep you really steady for a good period of time.

On the kalk add just enough for it to reach a ph of 12. In my bucker filled to the same level daily, mixed the same amount of time is only 1 tsp per gallon. Any thing over that falls to the bottom and is wasted.

Don

 

[cwcross]

One other quick comment. Magnesium, is vitally important for stopping the precipition of Calcium Carbonate. If your tank is really going through the Kalk, it is probably going through Mg more quickly than normal also. You might need to check and see whether your Mg and Ca levels are off. Of course you can't easily check Mg as it just shows up as calcium in a testkit. From frequent and larger water changing for awhile, or adding some epsom salts might help.

Collin

 

[MikeS]

I test my Mg about every 2 weeks and adjust it as necessary using SeaChem Mg. The salt mix is use is low in Mg, usually around 1000-1100ppm. I adjust my tank up to 1250-1300ppm. I tested about 10 days ago, it was at 1270ppm.

On Mg...I have noticed that it does not fall as quickly using the vinager boosted kalk as opposed to just plain kalk.

Should I stop using vinager as DonW suggested? Is this part of the problem I'm experiencing? What are your thoughts on the vinager? And why is it behaving this way when vinager should help both Ca and alk, and prevent calcium carbonate crystalization?

on the 3 tsp....I experimented with that because I use Mrs Wages, (which is obviously not as pure as most commercial kalk mixes) and I was curious to see if exceeding the max of 2 tsp would make any difference. It didn't seem to...

MikeS

 

[cwcross]

Hi MikeS,

First let me say that I don't think the vinegar has anything to do with your problem. I use 100ml vineger/tsp Ball Pickling lime in 1 gallon to dose my tank. I don't have these problems. Understand that the vinegar WILL help you product a more concentrated Kalk mix so that you can add more Ca and Alk to your tank/gallon of mix. However, the problem is that once you put it into your tank, it is diluted very drastically compared to the ca and alk already in your tank so it will NOT prevent ca precipitation in your tank except by a very miniscule amount. Even then the vinegar will be consumed by bacteria and algea very quickly and then will do nothing for you as it will be gone.

Second, if you use Kalk to stave off calcium depletion until it is low and then adjust the calcium chloride only, you are getting your alk and ca out of balance. CaCl2 needs to be supplemented with biCarbonate in order to provide a balanced Ca to Alk ratio. It looks like over time, you have skewed all your ratios out of balance.

Several things from what you said are ringing bells for me. You said your Alk runs from 1.7-2.5 while your ph runs from 8.1-8.1. In a balance system an Alk of 1.7 should provide a pH of only about 8.05 while an Alk of 2.5 should provide a pH of only about 8.25 or so. This says that your pH is running too high for your Alk. Likewise for the Ca. An Alk of 2.5 should give you a Ca of about 390-400 or so (off the top of head). and 1.5 should be much lower.

I think that DonW hit the nail on the head. You need to make sure and add balance Ca and Alk from now on. Kalk is the best way to do this IMO but there are other ways. If you have to supplement, make sure to use a balanced additive combo. You can either make your own or buy some off the shelf brands. However, CaCl2 by itself will get you out of balance.

My suggestion.... Do several LARGE water changes...as large as you can handle (25% plus)...about 4-5 of them over 1-2 months or less if you can. Then only add Kalk (with vinegar to help your problem) and a balanced Ca-Alk combo to supplement if you have too. Also, I'm wondering about your CO2 equilibrium. Make sure that you have good rippling of the surface of your aquarium and that it is allowed to get adequate exchange with the air. If you need a Ca reactor then so be it. However, it is hard for me to believe your can't add enough Kalk to keep your Ca up if you don't lose it via precipitation.



Good Luck...C

Hi all

I've been experimenting with vinager boosted kalkwasser for several months now. I have noticed an increase in calcium carbonate scale buildup on my heater, glass, inside the powerheads, ect.

I thought one of the benefits of using vinager with kalk mix was to help prevent calcium carbonate crystalization. Yet I have seen an increase of this while using it.

Here are the specifics...I'm currently dosing 45ml of 5% white vinager in ratio to 3 tsp. of Mrs Wages pickling lime per 1 gallon RO/DI makeup water. I use baking soda and/or Kent ProBuffer to adjust my dKH. I dose about 1 gallon of this per day. I started at 10ml vinager and 2 tsp. Mrs Wages per gallon and have worked my way up to the current dosage...

My calcium usually tests between 370-410ppm. When it drops below 350, I use Kent Turbo Calcium to bring it back up. My alkalinity swings up and down, but is usually on the low side..1.7 to 2.5 meq/L. I have a difficult time getting it up above 2.5 for very long. My pH stays pretty constant, between 8.2-8.4.

My tank uses calcium pretty fast...I have a very large T Derasa, a large branching anchor, and several other LPS.

What am I doing wrong here? Too much vinager? Too much Kalk? Bad ratio?

Thanks for the help...

MikeS

 

[mojoreef]

Mike whats your salinity??

Mike

 

[MikeS]

Thanks for the responses...

Mojo...my SG is at 1.0245 (corrected for 80 deg. F)

First let me say that I don't think the vinegar has anything to do with your problem. I use 100ml vineger/tsp Ball Pickling lime in 1 gallon to dose my tank.

Could my vinager to kalk mix ratio be off? Your vinager/kalk ratio is almost 7 times greater than mine....

CaCl2 needs to be supplemented with biCarbonate in order to provide a balanced Ca to Alk ratio. It looks like over time, you have skewed all your ratios out of balance.

When I use the CaCl2, I also always use a bicarbonate source with it, either baking soda or ProBuffer.

Several things from what you said are ringing bells for me. You said your Alk runs from 1.7-2.5 while your ph runs from 8.1-8.1. In a balance system an Alk of 1.7 should provide a pH of only about 8.05 while an Alk of 2.5 should provide a pH of only about 8.25 or so. This says that your pH is running too high for your Alk. Likewise for the Ca. An Alk of 2.5 should give you a Ca of about 390-400 or so (off the top of head). and 1.5 should be much lower.

my pH runs from 8.2 to 8.4

I think that DonW hit the nail on the head. You need to make sure and add balance Ca and Alk from now on. Kalk is the best way to do this IMO but there are other ways. If you have to supplement, make sure to use a balanced additive combo. You can either make your own or buy some off the shelf brands. However, CaCl2 by itself will get you out of balance.

If I'm using a bicarbonate source along with the CaCl2, which I always do, wouldn't this be considered basically the same as using a balanced 2 part additive? When I use the CaCl2 and baking soda, I have better results keeping my Ca and Alk where they need to be, the problem occurs when I switch back to kalk.

Also, I'm wondering about your CO2 equilibrium. Make sure that you have good rippling of the surface of your aquarium and that it is allowed to get adequate exchange with the air. If you need a Ca reactor then so be it. However, it is hard for me to believe your can't add enough Kalk to keep your Ca up if you don't lose it via precipitation.

I think I'm getting good gas exchange, I have lots of surface motion, and I have a homemade "surface skimmer" that keeps the surface free of oils and other gunk. My light hood is vented and air is forced through it with a fan, I have no glass or anything on top of the tank.

I do have a small amount of calupera (I know, I know ) in the tank, introduced a while back to help combat a bubble algae problem. I harvest it out regularly and keep the amount pretty small.

thanks all
MikeS

 

[cwcross]

It won't matter. 100 ml/2 tsp is the top ratio. Anythings else will just put extra vinegar into your tank and anything less won't hurt. You should start with maybe 60 ml/tsp and then work up after making sure all is OK. However, the vinegar helps keep the pH from spiking during addition and also feeds your bacteria. It generally a good thing. I just hate to recomend the max and have you have a problem. Start less and then work up. The actual ratio won't affect your problem...C

 

[cwcross]

sorry I meant 60ml/2 tsp

 

[MikeS]

Thanks again for the replys...

I started with a small amount, 5 ml/tsp and have worked up very slowly to my current 15ml/tsp. Are you saying start at 60ml/2 tsp or work up to a max of 60ml/2 tsp?

Could my preperation technique be a problem? I mix the kalk and vinager first, swirling them together in my doser (I make a fresh batch daily) and let it sit for 30 minutes or more, then I add the RO/DI, shaking it up well again before I let it settle.

When I use the CaCl2, I also drip it. I usually add the bicarbonate a few hours prior to dripping.

MikeS

 

[cwcross]

Well, its good to go slowly and look for any changes. I think you are doing it the right way. Your mixing procedure looks fine. I add vinegar, dump in Kalk, swirl until its all broken up and dispersed and then add water and start an immediate drip..C

 

[mojoreef]

Mike at a salinity of 1.024 the following numbers would be concidered normal and balanced:
Calcium = 368
Alk = 2.3 meq/L
mag= 1191


mike

 

[MikeS]

thanks for the replys!

So is my 1250-1300 ppm Mg level too much for 1.0245 SG? Should I be shooting for closer to 1200?

On the CaCl2....I do use a bicarbonate source with it, could this still be causing initial imbalances? Also I'm still curious as to why I have an easer time getting Ca and alk in "balance" when using it (CaCl2 plus baking soda), but have problems when I switch back to the kalk..., particularly with alkalinity.

On the calcium carbonate formation, what tends to be contributing factors to its formation? Is this typically a calcium problem or an alkalinity problem?

Thanks

Mike

 

[cwcross]

MikeS. I'm not sure why you are having more luck with CaCl2 and BS than with Kalk. I would think that Kalk would be easier to balance since it is perfectly balance by definition. It could be an air mixture problem. You need enough CO2 from air entering water to make Kalk work. Also, could be your salt, you might consider changing batches or brands. Also, could just be that you are severaly out of balance in something you can't see if your tank is very established and you haven't done enough water changes lately?

As far as what leads to Ca Precipitation, it is: concentration of calcium, concentration of Alk, pH, CO2 partial pressure and Mg concentration. All of these things affect Calcium Carbonate precipitation. Fluctuations in the levels of these parameters could lead increased problems. Sorry I don't have more to offer...C

 

[wrightme43]

Is there a difference between Ms. balls picking lime and kent marine Kalkwasser? For the difference in price I hope there is. Or just to play the devils advocate (and remember Mike I am a sand junkie too) Could the bio activity "aquarium composting" be creating enough acid to use up the buffer capacity faster than the coral can pull buffer and calcium? Is that one of the symptoms of sand bed failure? The reason I am asking is one of the deep sand beds at local fish store is crashing right now. I have been watching it. Very strange things have been happening in that tank for a few months now. Chris if I am way off base here tell me. I have been reading this thread with intrest, and thinking on what you have all said, this is all my limited experince can come up with to help. Steve

 

[cwcross]

I would imagine there is little effective or imporant difference between the fancy Kalkwasser and pickling lime. One is probably slightly more pure than the other but considering the markups and required profit margins of the aquarium business, I'll bet the one isn't signficantly better than the other. Even if it is it won't matter much if at all. I use pickling lime myself. If you want really pure stuff go to Sigma/Aldrich chemical supply and buy research grade. As far as your other theory you could be correct. Acid buildup will consume Alk. The good news is that biological acids can be usually by skimmed pretty easily. However, this factor and others are why I am not an advocate of a DSB in the main tank. IMHO, I believe a better place for a DSB is in a satellite tank where it can be managed more easily. I think the main tank should have either no or very little substrate. I use about a 1/2 inch in my main tank.

 

[MikeS]

Thanks for the help all...

What are the mathematical equations to fiqure the Ca/Alk balance?

Mojo...what is the equation you used to figure normal, balanced Ca, alk, and Mg based on my SG?

I'd like to track this in my tank, the equations would help

MikeS