Catching fish with cyanide

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BCT182

BCT182

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Sumner WA
After this recent thread that seems to be nearing a lock down:

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=40126



I think its appropriate that we have a discussion about catching fish with cyanide. Affects on the reef, affects on fish short and long term and if it should be supported?

The question we should start with is the one raised in the above thread.

If you buy a fish and it was caught using the cyanide method, and that fish survives for a extending period of time, then is the method in which it was collected acceptable?
 
Ignore this question if you want answers to the above first, but is there any way to tell if a fish was caught with cyanide?
 
Brett, great thread!!

IMO, no the practice is still wrong. The fish might just survive. Many do, but many more die. When cyanide is used, many of the fish that are effected aren't even collected, but are left on the reef to die. Many fish that are collected die as well. Then there's the impact to the entire reef area where it's used. Some estimates say that an average of a square meter of habitat is wiped out for every fish that is captured. Now think of a square meter of coral and how many fish normally live on that area. Consider the pictures we all love of a huge coral head surrounded by hundreds of schooling fish.
Cyanide use is about more than just the fish that are caught and provided for sale at the LFS. In fact, that's probably one of the lesser parts to the damage caused by it's use, if you consider the coral, algae and other fish that are killed by it's use. I was just viewing some pics earlier today. Found one that showed the total destruction caused to an entire area of reef by the use of cyanide. I'll see if I can find that article again.
 
Last edited:
soyadrink said:
Ignore this question if you want answers to the above first, but is there any way to tell if a fish was caught with cyanide?
Click to expand...

From Wiki "Cyanide is illegally used to capture live fish near coral reefs for the aquarium and seafood markets. This fishing occurs mainly in the Philippines, Indonesia and the Caribbean to supply the 2 million marine aquarium owners in the world. In this method, a diver uses a large, needleless syringe to squirt a cyanide solution into areas where the fish are hiding, stunning them so that they can be easily gathered. Many fish caught in this fashion die immediately, or in shipping. Those that survive to find their way into pet stores often die from shock, or from massive digestive damage. The high concentrations of cyanide on reefs on which this has occurred has resulted in cases of cyanide poisoning among local fishermen and their families, as well as irreversible damage to the coral reefs themselves and other marine life in the area.
Environmental organizations are critical of the practice, as are some aquarists and aquarium dealers. To prevent the trade of illegally-caught aquarium fish, the Marine Aquarium Council (Headquarters: Honolulu, Hawaii) has created a certification in which the tropical fish are caught legally with nets only. To ensure authenticity, "MAC-Certified marine organisms bear the MAC-Certified label on the tanks and boxes in which they are kept and shipped." MAC Certification.
Magnesium cyanide is also used in some countries illegally to stun and harvest streamlined[vague] fish."


So I guess major digestive damage.... among other things.
 
Is Cyanide Still An Issue?
http://www.marinefauna-cebu.com/cyn.html

Effects of Cyanide on the reef
http://www.cdnn.info/news/article/a030429.html

How much damage is done using cyanide?
http://oceanworld.tamu.edu/students/coral/coral5.htm

Cyanide damages reef more than Tsunami
http://news.mongabay.com/2006/0927-coral.html

Should I keep going????


Soyadrink, I'll try to answer your question....
Being able to detect signs of cyanide poisoning in fish would be very difficult. When fish are first subjected to cyanide, it messes with their equilibrium temporarily. They will swim in crazy circles or just float in place. The immediate effects soon wear off and the fish looks and acts just fine. It normally takes a month or two for the damage to take place as the cyanide that remains in the system of the fish starts to poison the liver and attack the blood stream.
 
I think this is why it is important to know not only the price of the fish you are buying, but the methodology and habitat it was taken from. We cannot see what goes into are beef, chicken, and produce, but is we take it at face value and say that it doesn't matter we will end up with horrible consequences. No, I also don't think the powers of capitalism will take care of it. A store buying cyanide fish will make more money not less; try actually going out to the reef and net catching a fish, and you though the 100 gal tank was bad. Furthermore cyanide isn't the only poor method. I hate swimming in hawaii and seeing huge fish traps lying on the reef with fish constantly getting trapped in them. Your best bet it a open them up so they can swim in a out, moving one by hand is.... hard. I guess It saddens me to think that we as consumers think responsibility belongs to someone up the chain. I talked to one of my friends from Thailand who uses cyanide to catch fish because he has too. Shall water fish that school together really are the easiest way for a man to support his wife and kids. This is what he told me about the chain.

After he sprays cyanide he can collect several hundred fish from a small area. About 30%-50% percent don't ever wake back up. The ones that do are brought to shore in a bag and packaged right there on the beach. They are then picked up by truck by a large export/shipping company that counts his catch and they pay him later. They are then shipped to a holding facility where about 50% of whats left die. There they wait for a 3-4 days period in, at least the facility I saw, really gross water. They are then shipped to a wholesaler in the states that can distribute them to multiple small stores the Thai shipper could not. The U.S. wholesaler treats the crap outta them and tries to get them to eats. I mean copper in levels I have never dare used. They then wait for order from local pets stores and voila! It's a don't ask don't tell world. Yes many countries have anti cyanide laws but the great majority is unenforced. In fact for a test, which I have done with great joy, travel to one of the countries, I chose Thailland cause that were my best friend is from, wade into the water and just start catching with with a speargun. Not a single person will ask you what you are doing outside of Bangkok. So here is the price breakdown for a typical powerblue tang.

Prices paid of unit in USD.

.75-1 Dollar By Thai Shipper to Fisherman

5-10 Dollars By U.S. Wholesaler to Thai Shipper

35-60 Dollars Paid by U.S. Pet store to wholesaler.

This is of course for live specimen.

Now of course take this info to stride but here are some sources I would suggest.

http://www.american.edu/ted/coral.htm
http://www.aaas.org/international/africa/coralreefs/ch1.shtml

Now of course this is only one source, and I had a friend that was kind enough to tell me how much he was paid, and the illegal method he employs. But honestly, I don't hold it against him. He make very little for the work he does and catching by net just isn't lucrative enough at at the rate he paid. Remember 75 cents is what he gets for a valuable fish not your average damsel.

Ultimately it comes down to responsibility. Do we blame the fisherman who are trying to make an honest wage? The Transhipper just helping his company out? The U.S. wholesaler that wants to bring us the best quality livestock? Or the LFS, but then again at that point I would posit that many have no idea how the fish are caught or what beaches they were brought from?

This is dilemma that goes beyond where you buy from too how we support not only the hobby, but the greater environment.

As a disclosure I am not a liberal that wants to protect the world from everything. I love my wildcaught fish way more the my aquacultured, sorry. My achilles kicks ass. But, I do believe that this trade is sustainable. We can pay fisherman higher wages so that they use cyanide, and we can make sure transhippers are limited in the number of fish they send abroad. That is why I am proud to spend more on a single fish if it for the right reasons.

Yes, I agree, paying more just because the LFS charges 200 markup, isn't smart, but is that really the case? Do we really believe that our LFS here that charge 30-40 percent more than another one is just making hand over fist in profits? Or is it because they have chosen reputable sources and took the responsibility to protecting their livelihood as well as our mutual environment into their own hands? Maybe we should as well. Would you be more selective of your fish and be thoughtful of your husbandry if a tang Naso cost 20, 100, or 200 dollars? Well maybe not. But just for a moment think about what you want your consumer dollar to do because it is a powerful tool. It behooves us to spend the time to think about the role we play and the world we have been gifted.
 
Yes, I agree, paying more just because the LFS charges 200 markup, isn't smart, but is that really the case? Do we really believe that our LFS here that charge 30-40 percent more than another one is just making hand over fist in profits? Or is it because they have chosen reputable sources and took the responsibility to protecting their livelihood as well as our mutual environment into their own hands? Maybe we should as well. Would you be more selective of your fish and be thoughtful of your husbandry if a tang Naso cost 20, 100, or 200 dollars? Well maybe not. But just for a moment think about what you want your consumer dollar to do because it is a powerful tool. It behooves us to spend the time to think about the role we play and the world we have been gifted.
Click to expand...

perfect, I totally agree. Another thing to take into consideration about prices, is how long the LFS holds the fish before letting it be sold. If they were just getting the fish out as fast as it came in then there is no reason to have as much mark up on it. But in the same sense, if they are properly treating and making sure the fish eats before selling, they deserve the extra dollar. JMO

Thanks,

-augustus

{SORRY for not really being about Cyanide, just had share}
 
nice thread

as far as pointing the blame I say it is us the aquarist who is guilty for keeping these fish. Sad but true. when demand is high more will die. Makes me want to quit actually. It is amazing how many things we unknowingly contribute to.
 
 
This is a touchy subject...with roots going far back. I do not want to comment on how bad it is right now, because I simply do not know.

A lot of people in the industry (my dad included) stopped working after widespread use of cyanide. He refused to work, and is now in a different profession.

Of course this was in the early 1990's. He was a skin diver who collected corals/fish in Indo.


Best,
ilham
 
I need to add there there are some signs of fish caught with cyanide.

The first you will notice is that during the first one or two, things seem normal, then all of a sudden, diet and eating stops. The girth of the fish will quickly decrease.

Cyanide it seems to affect the fish inside, rather than out, which to collectors/companies is a good thing, as not many will be able to tell how they are collected. But they are really melting away in the inside, but far too long after hobbyists purchase them.

I would also guess that initial immune system responses will be much lower, leading to more cloudy eye infections, etc.



Best,
Ilham
 
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