Clams dying need help!!

[chris&barb]

just to reiterate what Don said about using "cleaner clams" for nitrate control. these clams (cleaners) dont uptake N&P (nitrogen & phosphorus) the same way photosynthetic clams do. photosynthetic clams(tridacnids) can extract raw/dissolved N&P right out of the water to pass onto there zoox. cleaner clams rely on particulate matter for there main source of N&P. the only reduction of N&P you will realize from cleaner clams is from them removing the particulate matter before it has a chance to break down into its dissolved form.

there are far more draw backs to using this method for nutrient control then benefits.

1. in order for it to be effective you need a large biomass of clams.(lots of them)

2.these cleaners solely rely on particulate matter. to keep them alive you will need to ADD particulate matter. (counterproductive)

3. most of these cleaners spawn regularly. quickly and easily fouling an enclosed system.

4. they tend to burrow into the substrate, so when they eventually die you dont know, and they just lay there and rot.

 

[reefchaos]

Here is a pic, its the best i can do with my point and shoot camera unfortunately. It is extremely small and thin and didn't resemble any of the worms I just looked up (Oenone fulgida). You can't really see the bristles but they are much more spaced out than a bristle worm and has 1 single bristle on each side of segment compared to multiple bristles that a bristle worm has.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a318/smitty_/DSC01209.jpg

 

[reefchaos]

Thank You Chris for the info. I dought I will be using that method to control my N&P cycle although it is quite interesting. I will rely on good ole' fashioned water changes and try to limit the nutrient input into the tank from excess food.

 

[james734]

The picture looks like one of these.

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/photos_corals/showphoto.php?photo=650

Their scavengers so chances are it was just in the shell eating the dead part of the clam.

 

[Scooterman]

In the past month I have probably changed 75-100% of the water in the system trying to bring the nitrate down. Unsuccessfully. All water made is with RO/DI.

If your changing this much water volume & still showing problems then something is keeping your traits that high, how much at once are you replacing? SB, you have a SB? How deep is it? How old is it? What are you putting into your tank as in food supplements? When your doing WC's what are you removing along with it?
If your sucking out as much Detritus as you can per change, your cleaning the sump, skimmer pumps etc anything that can hold nitrates, then your left with what? Yea, LR & Sand! You may have Sand Issues unless there is something else your leaving out & not telling, I would do some sample testing in your SB, tell us what you find.

 

[Reeferdude]

Ca does not need to be that high. 380 to 400 is fine. Nitrates are probably the biggest issue. The combonation of all, low alk, ca and high nitrates is a sure sign that water quality was allowed to fall behind. When one clam dies they cause serious pollution especially if they release from the shell. This will in turn kill others soon after. Before restocking I would just make sure water quality is brought back into check and lighting is fitting of raising clams.

Don

Agreed. There is a range of effectiveness.

 

[reefchaos]

I have noticed some detritus build up behind some of the rock work that the water flow in the tank does'nt seem to get to Scooterman. How do you go about removing detritus without all of the sand withit?

BTW my sand bed is about 6-7" deep and is about 2.5yrs old. I generally feed 2-3 times a day with spectrum pellets and J.Sprung seaweed. Everyother day or so I will feed mysis shrimp. All frozen food feed is soaked and rinsed in ro/di water to help remove excess nutrients.

 

[DonW]

If you have nitrates of 50 then its just plain food or detritus rotting in the tank. Either something (rock or sandbed) is not doing its job or is being over loaded. Its really hard to diagnose this sort of problem over a internet forum.
You can start with the basics and move on from there. Water changes, servicing equipment like skimmers and powerhead and cutting back on feeding. If these attempts fail I'd take a closer look at the DSB. 2.5 years, it may be saturated and need to be replaced. The foods you listed are very high P contributors no matter how much they are soaked. Also double check the test kit and make sure you really have a problem.

Don

Don

 

[Reeferdude]

2-3 times a day seems too much to me. That could explain the water condition. Might want to cut back for a while to find that balance.

 

[Scooterman]

I can't add much help other than what Don posted but I can suggest & mention that maintaining a DSB isn't cut & dry. Let me get a few good links to read & help with this, is has been discussed & explained throughly more than once & will provide more information than I can In one post.

Internet is slow today so you can search maybe more but here is a good start.


http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-08/rs/index.php

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30

great thread from TRT, worth reading.

http://thereeftank.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23293&highlight=limitations+DSB

 

[DonW]

2-3 times a day seems too much to me. That could explain the water condition. Might want to cut back for a while to find that balance.

That all depends on the system. Feeding can be a problem if its just once for some folks or 20 times a day for others. I feed 13 times per day with no problems. My opinion is that if a person finds that cutting back on feeding cures a issue such as excess nitrates its not a feeding problem it just plain overstocking.

Don

 

[Reeferdude]

That all depends on the system. Feeding can be a problem if its just once for some folks or 20 times a day for others. I feed 13 times per day with no problems. My opinion is that if a person finds that cutting back on feeding cures a issue such as excess nitrates its not a feeding problem it just plain overstocking.

Don

I couldn't agree more. But 3 Tangs, 2 Percula, and 1 yellow tail damsel in a 93 gallon tank doesn't seem to be overstocked, does it?

 

[Herefishyfishy]

The Percs and damsel aren't a problem, but 3 tangs in a 90 sure can be.
Besides the bioload, they need swimming and grazing room.

 

[DonW]

I couldn't agree more. But 3 Tangs, 2 Percula, and 1 yellow tail damsel in a 93 gallon tank doesn't seem to be overstocked, does it?

Tank size is only a small part of the equation when it come to nutrients. In fact its pretty much meaningless unless you talking about wether or not its humane to keep a particular fish or not.You could have 150g than cant handle two clowns or one that can handle 10 tangs in terms of bioload just all depends on the system.

Don

 

[Reeferdude]

I couldn't disagree more. Specifically in terms of tank size. Now we're going the other way. LOL. Let's take that line of thinking to it's logical conclusion. If I had a tank that was say...10000 gallons and supplied it's one clown inhabitant 1/8th oz food of any variety once a day, compared to a 50 gallon tank with the same one clown inhabitant 1/8th oz of the same food, the impact on the smaller tanks nutrient level and water quality would be meaningless in comparison to the larger tank? Similarly, that one oz of food would be unrecognizable in the Ocean. Size does matter. LOL. Under the same conditions (presuming two tanks are functioning properly) the larger tank will provide a greater level of water stability. But you're absolutely correct. How we stock our tanks, regardless of size factors immensely. But I still don't think 3 Tangs, 2 Percula, and 1 yellow tail damsel in a 93 gallon tank is overstocked. Fish, birds, dogs, animals in general will feed day and night if we give it to them. Heck some people don't even know when to stop eating...LOL

 

[DonW]

I couldn't disagree more. Specifically in terms of tank size. Now we're going the other way. LOL. Let's take that line of thinking to it's logical conclusion. If I had a tank that was say...10000 gallons and supplied it's one clown inhabitant 1/8th oz food of any variety once a day, compared to a 50 gallon tank with the same one clown inhabitant 1/8th oz of the same food, the impact on the smaller tanks nutrient level and water quality would be meaningless in comparison to the larger tank? Similarly, that one oz of food would be unrecognizable in the Ocean. Size does matter. LOL. Under the same conditions (presuming two tanks are functioning properly) the larger tank will provide a greater level of water stability. But you're absolutely correct. How we stock our tanks, regardless of size factors immensely. But I still don't think 3 Tangs, 2 Percula, and 1 yellow tail damsel in a 93 gallon tank is overstocked. Fish, birds, dogs, animals in general will feed day and night if we give it to them. Heck some people don't even know when to stop eating...LOL

Where did you come up with all that.:lol: The bottom line is that no two systems are the same, key word is system. You have no clue what bioload my 110G tank can handle nor do I have any idea what yours can handle. Generalized stocking capacities based on tank volume is utter bs and what gets many people into trouble. For me to assume that based solely on the fact that a tank holds 93g so it can handle 3 tangs, 2 perc and a damsel would be rediculous.
Now when we are discussing the high nitrates in the thread starters tank. We know there is a problem. This system may have been able to handle a huge fish load two years ago we have no clue because its not our tank. But what we do know its not handleing its current bioload. This can be caused by lack of biofiltration due to a saturated sand bed who knows. But assuming it is a lack of biofiltration then yes the tank is overstocked for it current condition.
Heck it may just a poorly operating skimmer. Again we are clueless.

Don

 

[Reeferdude]

Again we are clueless.

Don

Speak for yourself! Just kidding. LOL:

I think we could go on forever. But let me close (I think) with this. I am presuming the "system" is running fine. It may not be as you state. Without seeing it function or knowing it (the system) we may never know. Seems to me the obvious starting point to analyze a system failure or imbalance would be to eliminate the most common problem, and many times it's overfeeding and or water chemistry or a combination thereof mostly due to human error. Once those issues are rectified and if the problem still remains, then we could move on to potential problems with the "system" itself..The basic process of elimination...

 

[Scooterman]

What people don't realize & I see this daily from people that have tanks a few years, is the fact new the system was running super, they had their regular husbandry down, nota problem until two three years & suddenly things start dyeing off & fast. In most cases a regular husbandry schedule is fine to a point but every now & then you need to take a closer look at what is going on, a sb really changes constantly so your cleaning skills have to at times make large adjustments to get everything back on track. This is very important for anyone with a thin sb or a DSB & a refuge, these in particular will explode in time unless you do major preventative maintenance form time to time, just like your pumps, ph's & skimmer at times you need to tear them down & clean them, same goes with the above mentioned. One thing I strongly agree simple things can be overlooked & often is after we spend days questioning a person about their problems, this happens very frequently. Experience tells me that unless I'm there I can't leave out the smallest & simplest things otherwise it will get overlooked, also my experience grows daily so I know even after years & years & still have room for error & learning, so someone that has been doing this even a few years can miss things, it happens, it is difficult to communicate via forums, phone & sometimes even there unless you have time yourself to get to know how this system works.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

Scooty, you are always an inspiration for maintenance. Just cleaned out my skimmer from top to bottom inside and out and siphoned out my sump. Thanks!

 

[Scooterman]

Scooty, you are always an inspiration for maintenance. Just cleaned out my skimmer from top to bottom inside and out and siphoned out my sump. Thanks!

LOL thanks, really though it is true, we keep ever evolving tanks, It is for these reasons why you see a lot of BB people here, we are a group of lazy peeps :shock: less to deal with but still requires just as much attention.