Cleaning Advice Needed soon.

[plack]

Well I have had algae problems overtake and Win in my tank. (180 gallon 5" Deep Sand Bed.)

I have not yet been able to get /aquire/build the skimmer I want due to a multitude of reasons that have always popped up and pushed back my plans.

I have had allot of equipment issues/ accidents also wrecking havoc.

I plan NOT to buy any more coarls or anything for a while due to ALL the Bleaching that has happened over the last 6-8 weeks.

I should have a better cleanup crew and skimmer but cannot do/aquire that at this time.


Coarls : Pocilla and Stylophora , 2 Fungia , Blue Ridge 6" +,Pink Birds nest 2-3" , Chips Acro 2-3" , two unknown acros 2-3", 3 large polyp blasto wellsi, 2 dozen Candy Canes, Orange Crush 6 X 1.5" , Large 6" round Purple and green Favia, 4" chalice, Leather, One or two other small lps.

One 8" Dersa clam

Fish : (3) Anthias (2) 4" +Wrasses (1)5" Yellow Tang ,Yelow Headed Sleeper Goby,Lawnmower Blenny,(1) 4" dansel like creature deep dark solid purpleish black colored with a rear fin looking chromis like but its grown up fat and mean if I catch him he's gone


Equipment:
Near useless skimmer in smaller 35 gallon sump made by aquavia the largest model and it is mesh modded but the pump stops often and the level is near impossable to adjust ( hard to explain why just trust that it is almolst functionally no good)

Calcium and Nitrate Reactors,two little fishies phosban filter with water going at 150 GPH thru Grannular Ferric Oxide Pellets filled to 2" from the top, Lots of Carbon, orp and ph probes , Nepune Aquacontroller 2 (3 )250 watt pendant halides, oceans motions 4 way with a amp master 4700 GPH closed loop,2000 GPH Return to manifold with a seaswirl, heaters, fans,auto top off with kalk stirred in a 30 gallon container, 65 gallon container for new saltwater,

The equipment is either underneath the tank in or atop of the canopy or in a cabinet beside it that has a few shelves built in higher up including a 15 gallon above the tank level refegium that gets water pumped into then drains down to the tank once it gets above the drain hieght.

Feeding: Lately 1 cube mysis and 3" square of nori thats all---(used to auto feed pellets 4 times a day and feed 1-2 cubes as well daily)

Condition:
Well test kits say no or very little nitrates of cource ( What good are they ?) as well as no phosphate so it seems to me this 3 Year old tank is like a Kitty litter box that never got emptied and organics and phosphate are now bound in the rock and sand is the analogy I think of.

I plan on trying to do a massive cleaning by :

(1) Placing all corals in a 40 gallon tank with water from the tank.

(2) Placing most or all rock in trash can's with multiple layers of liners and duct tape as they are not for aquatic use only unfortunately. Cover rocks with tank water and manually scrub all the hair algae off them with a new nylon bristle pot scrubber individually in a seperate bucket !!

(3) Place fish in one of those 2 containers assuming I have room to empty the tank enoughp that the fish have no rocks to hide in.

(4) Not sure exactly how to proceed here.

I cant aquire starboard and the tank is glass so bare bottom scares me as a rock fall might crack the tank !

But I do want to siphon the sand greatly at the least and was leaning on removing allot of it down to maybe 1 1/2".

But with 2 wrasses a melenarus and a red corris that are digging in at night will this be enoughp for them ?

Could I have the sand on/in one side/spot only?

(5) Place the rock back in with new salt water that may not all be rodi as I can only do 65 gallons at at time and may have used or taken out more some of will be mixed with tap water and add some chlorine remover this was never done previously but this time calls for drastic cleaning and I have not enoughp containers and time to do this slowly!

(6) Just an hour or so after all rock is in and all filtration re started and all the new water is in I plan on adding the fish and corals there will still have been some of the original water in the tank at least 30 percent or more so I don't imagine a cycle as this should all be done in 1 very long day.

All Advice appreciated !!

I may even sell everything in a few months if life keeps making this tank a chore and finances keep thinning so if your interested just let me know! I may try uploading pictures later!



Paul

 

[reedman]

A couple of things to consider Paul:

What you are proposing will certainly clean things up, but it will also throw your bacteria levels into complete upheaval. You will more than likely get another algae bloom after this is done....just don't be surprised.

Livestock
Make sure you have enough heaters and powerheads to keep the water oxygenated, moving and warm for the fish and corals. Rocks are not as much of a concern. You will get die off in the rock as you expose sponges to the air...again...this will fuel some algae growth.
Rockwork
I have and have had in the past rock directly on the glass bottom of a tank with no issues. If you are worried about a rock slide just don't stack it too tall, or get some zipties or acrylic rod to make a solid structure. You can also use egg crate material to build a foundation to attach/stack rock on which will keep the tank more open and allow better flow. If you are putting sand back in after you place the rock (which I recommend) the sand will shore up the rock and make the bottom pieces more stable. I might suggest running the tank barebottom for a while to try to get the nutrients out. then add the clean sand back in gradually. Especially if you are going to run a shallow sand bed since it offers little to no filtration capability. Now if you are concerned about the wrasses, then just clean up the sand and add it back in. after the rock is placed.
Sand
I would recommend pulling the sand out and giving it a thorough cleaning. Put it in buckets and run water through it until it runs clear (or close). This will remove anything there that is feeding the problem. You will lose bacterial and some critters, but I doubt it is worth trying to save them at this point.
Water
I would test your tap water and see what the PO4 and NO3 levels are. You don't want to reintroduce high levels of nutrients after all this work. I know my water really isn't too bad nutrient wise, so hopefully you will have the same. Be sure to measure all your parameters (i.e. temp, PH, CA, Alk, etc.) and try to match them as best you can so as not to shock the fish/corals.
Other stuff
Remember with the new water your clarity will increase quite a bit so cut your light times back so you don't burn the corals. Since your tank is going to be empty you have an opportunity to redo your flow to best suit your needs. Something to think about.

Go slow and make sure you have everything laid out ahead of time. Good luck!!
-Reed

 

[plack]

Reed !

I was concerened about the wrasses sleping thats the only real reason I am not going bare bottom for now and also the glass concerns.

Heres recent pictures.

And this is after ALLOT of CONSTANT Manual Removal of ALGAE.

 

[reedman]

Yep, you definitely have some nutrients in there....but you knew that. I would definitely do what you are proposing and that should help. You may want to try bare bottom first to see how the wrasses do or add some sand at one end. This will allow your rock to shed (and it will) and allow you to remove the detritus that it does shed. That should help alot. I am battling similar after moving to the new tank...water changes, PO4 sponge, blow off the rock, and manual algae removal. Not much else you can do.

 

[dnjan]

Sounds like a major accumulation of nutrients in your sand bed. I would guess your carbon is exhausted within two days of changing it.

I would also guess that most of the detritus from all those fish is continuing to accumulate in the sandbed, rather than being kept suspended in the water column until carried over the overflow.

So, if you plan on continuing with that many fish, I don't think any kind of sandbed is a good idea.

If you want to have a sandbed, significantly reduce the bioload.

If you decide to keep a sandbed, you can siphon out a portion (say 25%) of the sand at a time, and replace it with new. Do 25% every week or two. That way you won't shock the system.

 

[Ed Hahn]

You can whip it.

Here is what I would look for.
I would check the TDS or your water filter.
I would make every effort to balance your water paremeters. Get to your set goals.
Mine are 400-420ppm Calcium for corals, clams, invertebrates
Alk is 2.8-3.5 meg/
Magnesium is often overlooked. It will cause your calcium and alk to swing rapidly.
Magnesium should be 3 times the total ppm of Calcium. Magnesium should be 1200 if Calcium is 400 ppm.
Keep temperature stable as possible. The cooler, the more oxygen rich usually.
Temperature swings cause die off, create waste.

Algae vs Algae.
I would fill up your refugeum with as much Macro algae as possible. Run your lights on Refugeum opposite or full time to combat phosphates.
Refugeum also removes CO2. Stabilizes PH. Remember Ph and temperature are the two most common killers of animals.

Those are things I would check if it were me.

I would also add one golden astrea snail per gallon from Reeftopia. Club in Tri-Cities does group orders often. I see no reason why PSAS member could not do the same.
You could start this if you wanted. Ask who was interested in Group order.
Things like this bring people together.

I would also introduce one more tang. Possibly a sailfin. A Red Sea Sailfin will eat Bryopsis. My Naso ate it.

Paul, I hope you whip this soon. I did. I know you can.

Your friend,
Ed

 

[trido]

Two big things off the top of my head

Ben has a melanarus wrasse in his BB 240. He made a little bed about 6"x8" with two or three inches of sand in it. The wrasse literally uses it as a bed. His wife teases that its a teen ager. It sleeps in about two hours after lights on.
My SSB is only about two inches deep at most. My wrasses bury themsleves without problem.

dont Kick me here everyone......
When I uprgraded to the 210 last summer I used my pressure washer to clean the algea of the tops of the rocks in my driveway. I then put it into a large garbage can filled with tank water. 180 pounds of it. Then next day when I got home from work the whole garage stunk like ammonia and I immediately did a 95% WC with more tank water. Since there was so much rock it only took about 25 gallons. I never smelled ammonia again and after a week everything tested zero so I restocked my bigger tank. Beleive it or not, most of my sponges lived, most of my forminiferians lived and I really didnt have much die off at all.
I also rinsed all of my sand in buckets in the driveway with a garden hose. I was amazed at the gunk that came out and I used to storm my SSB once a month.

 

[plack]

A little bed worked for ben's wrasse good !!!!!

I'll probably do sompthing along those lines next Monday ! A pressure washer sounds easier than manually scrubbing !! I like the idea !

Temperature Stays within 1º constantly

TDS has never been above 4 and is/has been zero

Magnesium has never been below 1300 for over a year

Refegium light 24/7 has macro algae

ph sinks to 7.88 at night 8.18 Days even with CA Reactor off for 2 days

Try to keep CA at 425 -440

Try to keep alk at 10-11 DKH

I know I need allot of snails etc but cant afford them this month due to a sudden cat surgery $400+

Seems like it's always sompthing so Cleaning is all I can do for now !

 

[gary shandling]

A skimmer more important then any reactor. Your LR and LS and water changes in a new tank is all you need with skimmer. Your wasting money and resources.

Slow down. Do you test the water ? do you have any powerheads? Whats the water source?

 

[trido]

A skimmer more important then any reactor. Your LR and LS and water changes in a new tank is all you need with skimmer. Your wasting money and resources.

Slow down. Do you test the water ? do you have any powerheads? Whats the water source?

Paul is going plenty slow Gary. Trust me. Ive been to his house for an assessment and things are grave.
He has a data log from testing a mile long. I actullay felt he was testing too often. Since were basically on the same water system from the same city he could likely run straight tap water without algea problems.
He has about 40X turnover as stated above, and its far from a new tank. Its been running for three years.
You did hit one huge thing on the head though......A worthy skimmer is key.

Paul, Im' glad to see you've cut back on feeding. How are the anthias doing BTW?

At this point, I think that I can agree though. A break down and cleaning is not a bad idea at all. Maybe letting things sit idle while you gather resources for a few months until you can get that new skimmer for X-mas feel, and a largre cleaner crew on order before performing the tear down is not a bad idea huh? Something to think about. Like Gary said. Slow down?

 

[plack]

The anthias are doing o.k. thanks!

They do seem lie they could use a bit more food but for now this is all they are going to get!

 

[reedman]

I know Paul will answer this, but until he does....this is not a new tank. It has been up for quite some time now. I agree that a solid skimmer would go a long way to help this, but he's stated several times that the money just isn't there for new equipment so that is out.

Paul has tested water parameters and even posted them above. He's got a closed loop providing flow throughout the tank and he is running RO/DI water. He stated that the TDS is 4 or less and lately has been 0. So that source sounds good. I'm betting it is organics bound up in the rock and sand.

 

[trido]

Ha Ha... Beat you both to it..

 

[gary shandling]

You say 40 times over but i dont see it. A wave maker doesnt make over and the 2000 gph return might be giving 800 gph the water source with no skimmer. Algea need disolved organic matter , that skimmers are great at removing unlike reactors , with water changes and feeding habits and over stocking or stocking to fast , all play a part.

Your tank is building a bacteria that helps balance the load. To much load and the bacteria levles suffer leaving room for algea growth.

Then low water current leaves low flow areas that undisolved solids collect.

Increase flow and maintane consistant water changes with quialty water and problem with dissappear.

 

[trido]

4700+2000/180=37.222222. I was just guessing. Sorry


BTW........Why are you browsing our local clubs forum? Just curious. I know its far from private. Seems odd to me. Thats all.


Also, your missing the point of this thread. The guy knows how to keep a reef tank. Due to a tight budget and over feeding, things have gotten out of hand. He didnt ask for a lesson in reef keeping. He asked for the best possble plan to break his tank down to start over.


Really IM not trying to pick afight here Gary. i agreed with you. A skimmer is key.

 

[gary shandling]

ALgea growth is from water source , flow amount or flow setup , bio load or amount of fish , and feeding habits and tanks age.

 

[plack]

PM sent to gary !

 

[gas4544]

Plack,

I am starting a new 30-gallon reef and I recently bought a used Octopus RPS-2000 skimmer. It is a recirculating skimmer and I have not yet plumbed my sump to my system. I am using another skimmer at this time.

If you would like to borrow my skimmer until you get a handle on your water conditions, you are welcome to use it. We are all in this together, and I would like to help.

Gary

 

[jnarowe]

I cringe when I see those feeding clips. When you get things cleaned up, maybe come for a visit and we can explore ways to feed well but not polute your system.

 

[plack]

Gas 4544 Thanks for the generous offer---

I am not so keen on borrowing a skimmer just cause I borrow a little one years ago from someone---

and he moved before I got it back to him and it never got returned as he is out of state and has said to not worry about it even 2 years later and has no tank know but I feel very akward keeping his in my garadge and would not want that to happen yet again but thanks


jnarowe good point.

I tried chopped up nori but the fish Did not go for it until I started feeding less

I will try the chopped nori again.



Paul

The wife found a gas reimbursment check so Maybe in 2 weeks I can buy pumps for building my own skimmer hopefully god willing !!