Cycling - 90 gallon w/LR & refugium

[SFEERO]

To all of you experts out there......

So I know the nitrogen cycle takes sometimes a month or more. I have a 90 gallon that has been running for almost 2 weeks, has about 100 lbs of live rock, and "dead" aragonate sugar sand as the substrate. About 10 lbs of the live rock came from my nano established aquarium, and the rest I received from LiveAquaria.com (expensive stuff). I have a refugium with the same "dead" sand and rubble rock. Haven't added cheato yet, because I have heard that high ammonia will kill it.

My questions are: Should I be skimming through the cycle? One of my buddies who is an experienced reefer said I should, and I have heard from others that I shouldn't. I know I want to build up good bacteria, and am concerned that skimming might hinder this and the cycle will take longer. For the first week I supplemented the tank with "Stability" and Biozyme (I think that's what its called).

I have tested the water every day after putting the live rock in it and turning on the pump to cycle water. Since day 1, my ammonia levels have been off the charts high, and as of the last two days my nitrite and nitrate levels are both off the charts high and my pH has dropped down to 8.0. I have had my temp set between 79-81 degrees. The first week I have had the lights on during the day as if fish were in it, but have since turned them off. Should the lights be on, or is this even necessary? Is it normal for all three (ammonia, nitrite, nitrate) to be off the charts high at the same time? I thought the ammonia would spike, then nitrite would rise as ammonia dropped, etc. This isn't happening in my case.

So, skimmer or no skimmer, and any thoughts about my water chemistry would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

 

[akunochi]

Here is a question first.

What are you doing to keep a bio load on the LR? This is necessary for the bacteria to propagate by necessity.

As to your other questions I always cycle with at least 50% lighting on. I add the cheato as soon as the ammonia drops, and I run my skimmer after about the second week just dialed back to dry skim.

Did you cure the LR after it came in from shipping? If not the die off could be contributing to the spike of all 3 tests at the same time. I would turn on you skimmer, kick a little light on and put a bio load on the tank. Also go ahead and execute a water change. It won't hurt anything.

 

[SFEERO]

Bioload? I've put stability and biozyme in the water, what type of bioload are u referring to? I've always heard to not conduct a water change during the cycling process. As far as curing the rock, I would have to say no, so I guess it is curing now. I put the rock in the aquarium right out of the box. I've run the skimmer for about a day and a half and I am getting a lot of skimmate. Any other suggestions?

 

[akunochi]

Yes bioload. If there is no bioload demanding that the bacteria eat and process then there is no reason for the bacteria colonies to go.

The easy way to do this is go to safeway (or whatever) buy a big shrimp, put it in a piece of new panty hose, tie a knot, throw it in the tank.
You can also feed an empty tank, or add a small sacrificial fish.

I would say that you are pulling a ton of skim mate because the die off from the rock is being put into your water column and skimmed out. So yes you are basically curing your rock in tank. The reason all 3 of your tests are high is because....

You have SOME bacteria, but not enough to handle the mass amount of die off in the tank. So it is basically processing all of the ammonia it can into nitrite and the next group is TRYING to turn is all into nitrate, but there just isn't enough bacteria yet. So you have residual nitrite and ammonia that hasn't gotten processed. Basically you have a que built up.

I would add a bio load, turn on your lights, run your skimmer, and do a water change in order to try and balance out the inbalance the die off has created.

 

[Krish]

I can't post the link from tapatalk, but if you click the home tab (which will take you to the home screen) and then go to the left column where it has previous articles (one being "All about liverock") you cam check it out as it has some info on curing/cured liverock and the process involved. At the end of the article there is a link that takes you to the discussion thread for that article which has a bit more info there. See if that helps any.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[SFEERO]

I guess I figured the die off from the LR would be my bio load. Guess I'll try that, thanks.

 

[akunochi]

The die off is acting as a bioload for now, but it is too much and also wouldn't last the length of the cycle more than likely. Your best bet is to look at the curing and cycle as two separate entities.

Get the rock cleaned up, then look at the cycle. The benefit and disadvantage you have going is you are doing both at once....lol

 

[Krish]

Seth has made some really good points here!

I agree totally with using the shrimp method to help cycle your tank. Eventually, all of your ammonia and nitrites would have worked off to zero and you will just be reading nitrates. At this point, you have completed what we call the initail cycle. From there as you add in fish you'd want to do slowly so that your tank will then have the opportunity to the adjust to the increased bioload where it will balance out again. This will continue throughout as you add in more and more livestock, but as time progresses and your tank matures, you will notice that adding in that new fish/increased bioload will probably not even register on your test results as the bacterial population you have built over time, will be able to support things alot better. You willl want to skim though during your cycling process. This is what is done even in curing rocks in a large container. Rocks, flow and a skimmer. Lighting is only essential if you want some of the stuff that is on your rock like coralline etc alive to continue to growing, but not 100% necessary. Some people never run lights in an attempt to kill off some of the un-wanted algae that may be on the rock. Seth's suggestion of a few hours a day is one I'd run with.

As for your test results reading nitrates, nitrites and ammonia all at one time, is kinda un-common for anything I've ever experienced for any of my setups, but I'm sure is nothing to worry about. Typically what happens is as waste begins to decay ammonia is produced which then begins to spike. It is then that an aerobic bacteria starts to colonize your liverock which is responsible for breaking down that ammonia into a less toxic form nitrite. As this happens, the ammonia will begin to drop off (because it is being converted into nitrite) which means nitrite now will begin to rise and ammonia should fall completely off. Same thing continues down the line with another bacteria breaking down nitrite into nitrate and so on so technically at some point, you should not really read any ammonia or nitrite in your tank and only nitrates if anything. I say give it some time though. You are still in the initial cycling process so it will take a bit of time for the tank to find it's balance.

BTW, good job Seth again for your feedback here.

 

[SFEERO]

Well I got home after work and turned on the lights to notice a small bit of a diatom bloom on the sand. Tested the water again, and it appears as if the ammonia level is going down slightly. I bought the shrimp on the way home, going to put that in, but how long do u suggest leaving it in for? Or, since the ammonia level is going down, should I even put the shrimp in there now?

 

[akunochi]

Yeah go ahead and toss the shrimp in. I leave it in until I see the nitrite beginning to decline. Cycles are so so weird. The cycle on my 180 lasted for 8 weeks and on my 75 barely 3 weeks.

 

[SFEERO]

Thanks man, just threw it in. Appreciate all of your help. I think I'm gonna do a water change once the ammonia and nitrite levels are nearly undetectable. I'll get back on this post with more questions down the road I am sure!

 

[Krish]

Good luck! If you want to do a little reading on diatoms and what to expect, there's an article on the homepage in the center on it.

 

[akunochi]

Thanks Krish. I have been doing so much reading lately trying to learn about coral farming as a business that I feel like my knowledge is suddenly expanding 10 fold.

Sfeero- Glad we could help. Make sure to ask anything you need to know along the way. Like I said before the only reason I can see that ammonia, nitrite and nitrate would read high is if your system had the following occurring.

A= ammonia generating die off

A1= ammonia processing bacteria

Ni=nitirite

Ni1= nitrite processing bacteria

N= nitrate

N1= nitrate bacteria converting to nitrogen

A>A1 = Ni increasing faster than production of Ni1 which leads to N increasing faster than N1 processes. This leads to a system backup causing all attribute A, Ni and N rising without adequate A1, Ni1 and N1 being present.

 

[SFEERO]

Hey guys, I posted this under "New to Reefkeeping". Wonder if you have any suggestions.

Flow rate into sump

Ok, so I set up my 90 gallon that has a pre-drilled overflow. I have an Aqueon Proflex Sump Model 3 set up as a refugium in the middle stage of the sump. My flow is way too high coming into the sump, so much so that water is flowing over the top of the first stage. My return pump is rated at about 900 gph I believe. Is this a pump issue (too strong) or am I doing something wrong? 3rd stage I have my return and skimmer, middle is my refugium. I have heard that installing a valve to slow the output from the return pump is a bad idea. Also, almost on a daily basis my 3rd stage gets so low the pump is almost exposed to air, whereas the first stage is still overflowing. Please help ASAP, any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Also, in my overflow I have a Megaflow 2. Help....​

 

[akunochi]

SFEERO: If you want I can come by sometime and check out your problem...maybe even help lol. PM me if you are interested.

 

[SFEERO]

Think I'm going with this....................

*UV STERILIZER DIVERTER VALVE Jump to Shopping Cart
For use with ponds, sumps, or any high flow water application where the flow rate exceeds the recommended GPH per watt (25-45 gph/Watt). 3 sizes:
*¾ inch hose barb inline with ½ inch hose barb ‘T’ with valve for UV Sterilizer- $11.99
*1 inch hose barb inline with ½ inch hose barb ‘T’ with valve for UV Sterilizer- $13.99
*1 inch hose barb inline with 3/4 inch hose barb ‘T’ with valve for UV Sterilizer- $15.99
1 inch by 3/4 diverter recommended for 18 watt or larger

 

[SFEERO]

I'M BAAAAAACK! Wow I have learned so much since March! Upgraded my lighting, upgraded my skimmer, changed up my substrate, added a phosphate reactor, this hobby is killing the bank but I love it! What's new? I'm going to try to get back into the blog again.

 

[jrgilles]

Yes bioload. If there is no bioload demanding that the bacteria eat and process then there is no reason for the bacteria colonies to go.

The easy way to do this is go to safeway (or whatever) buy a big shrimp, put it in a piece of new panty hose, tie a knot, throw it in the tank.
You can also feed an empty tank, or add a small sacrificial fish.

I would say that you are pulling a ton of skim mate because the die off from the rock is being put into your water column and skimmed out. So yes you are basically curing your rock in tank. The reason all 3 of your tests are high is because....

You have SOME bacteria, but not enough to handle the mass amount of die off in the tank. So it is basically processing all of the ammonia it can into nitrite and the next group is TRYING to turn is all into nitrate, but there just isn't enough bacteria yet. So you have residual nitrite and ammonia that hasn't gotten processed. Basically you have a que built up.

I would add a bio load, turn on your lights, run your skimmer, and do a water change in order to try and balance out the inbalance the die off has created.

+1 on this