disappearing ick???

[tmkx3]

okay I am crazy. I saw these little white spots all over one of my clown this morning at about 6:30 am ( I had my son look and he saw them too) When I got home at 9:30 am and checked the fish they were gone. Where did they go. I read some articles on ick and from what I understand the white spots should be there for a while before they fall off. My fish didn't have any spots yesterday. I watch them all very closely to make sure they are all eating and that they are acting normal. I drive my family with how much I watch my fish. My clowns like to swish the sand with their tails could've this been sand? My husband thought that was what it was but I didn't think the sand would stick to them. I guess I should watch them for a few days. I have a fire shrimp do they clean parasites?



Thanx

Tinia

 

[Scooterman]

No on the shrimp, the I'd keep an eye on them & see, stress can do this to a fish. check your warter parms also. I personally like to use garlic extream in their food when I see things like this, It seems to help IMO.

 

[Krish]

Doesn't sound like your typical ich to me...I've never heard of ich being here today and gone today, but I could be wrong. In any event, once your water parameters are cool (like Scooter suggested) and the fish is eating and is active, and once the spots don't re-surface, then I think and hope you should be fine...I'd watch him for the time being just to be sure...Good luck!

 

[mungus]

This may be a long shot but do you have a wrasse or parrot fish that sleeps in a mucus cocoon? My wrasse has white spots on him every morning from his cocoon. I have seen it on my clown once or twice. They are good budies and swim around together alot. I asume that my clown was looking for him in the morning and somehow got some on him also. It's usually gone within an hour. This is a very long shot so please make sure you monitor your fish.

Brian

 

[wrightme43]

Hey Scooty arent fire shrimp cleaners. I sure thought they were. Mine cleans my fish any way and my hands and whatever else sits still long enough for him to try cleaning. LOL

 

[Scooterman]

Fire shrimps are cool shrimps but I was told/read they are not considered cleaners, also they are expensive. I've seen where tangs get spots & loose them quickly but eventually if nothing is done to remove the problem it gets worse.

 

[steve-s]

Here today and gone tomorrow is actually a typical cycle for C. irritans, especially in the early stages. When there are still only a few visible trophonts, it can be deceiving when they disappear the first or second full cycle. Once the theront level gets higher (approx 200/tomont), you then see the "always visible" spots.

Keep sharp tabs on it as first suggested, could easily be debris or sand caught in the slime coat. If it does come back, it will usually do so in force and you will need to treat all the fish, not just the one visibley affected.

Cheers
Steve

 

[tmkx3]

I bought some garlicXtreme from the lfs. Does this help? I am a little confused about the instructions. It says to soak the food at the ratio of 2 drops to one teaspoon. That is way to much food for one sitting. I only have 5 small fish. Can I treat one teaspoon and save it? How exactly do you soak all the food? 2 drops is not that much fluid. Do you add water? Would it be better to just add 10drops to the tank? Is this less effective? My clown is acting fine. She is active and eating so far.


Tinia

 

[wrightme43]

I added it to live brine. It seems to help a little. Nothing like removal, and treatment with hyposalinity.

 

[Scooterman]

How exactly do you soak all the food? 2 drops is not that much fluid.

Drop a few drops on whatever your feeding let it soak into the food a little while, this way the fish actually eats it.

Nothing like removal, and treatment with hyposalinity.

I don't necessary agree with this method for several reasons.
1) ICK will live in your tank for a good while without host & just removing the fish alone is not removing all possible host for ICK.
2. Stress in catching fish will also help weaken them farther.
3. Hypo-salinity in QT is good but what about the rest of the main tank.

although treating fish before adding to a tank in the first place is a good idea, it still not a guarantee. As far as treatment you can read a ton of cures & reasons fish get ICK, each case will be different but while having many tangs I find three things that was very successful in preventing it. One quality water, two stress (water quality can cause higher stress, also aggressive fish mates) & three not proved but man from what I've seen first hand the garlic.

It is always a good idea to do some searching & reading on the subject first hand, get to know what your dealing with, please do a search on ICK.

 

[tmkx3]

Scotty I think I am with you. I am afraid that catching the fish and putting them in a qt will really stress all of us out. Catching five small fish with 100lbs of lr will not be easy. Your right, what about the main tank. I read that if I take all the fish out the ick will starve without a host. Can other things in the tank host the ick? Like the inverts and lr. I was thinking about taking my inverts out and using hypo on the main tank. What do you think I have also learned that hypo will kill everything in my lr. Does this include the beneficial bacteria? Maybe I should take the rock out too? I don't have anything on hand to house the lr. Will a new large trash can work with a powerhead? Can the inverts go in there with the rock? What other equitment will I need? This is such a pain. I have learned my lesson. I will never put anything in my tank again without qt.

I still am not really sure I have ick yet. This morning when I turned on the lights my clowns were asleep in the hole they dug in the sand. The same fish had a few spots on her but not as many as yesterday. The sand in my tank is like sugar. I don't want to do anything drastic yet. How long do I have before it gets bad?

What does gilling or heavey breathing look like? She is move her mouth alot open and closed but I don't see any rapid gill movement. Of course I am use to dealing with huge gold fish, not small clownfish. I had A problem with my heater last week. It over heated the tank to 88 and then went out. ( I replaced it). She has been breathing like this since that day.Her different breathing was what made think there was something wrong. All of the fish were very inactive for a few days. They are fine now.

I appreciate your help so much

Tinia

 

[wrightme43]

Yes you have to remove all the fish to use hypo. Error of omission.

 

[steve-s]

I don't necessary agree with this method for several reasons.
1) ICK will live in your tank for a good while without host

The average time frame for C. irritans is about 40 days without a host and upto a year with a host (that's taking into account the fish live)

& just removing the fish alone is not removing all possible host for ICK.

There is only one host for this parasite, teleost marine fish.

2. Stress in catching fish will also help weaken them farther.

True but if done properly, stress can be minimized. After lights out and using a plastic container as apposed to nets for instance. Time is the greatest factor in stressing the fish, not simpley the act itself. If you spend a good amount of time chasing a fish around a heavily stocked tank you are bound to have problems. If properly timed and conditions made optimal for it's capture, the time spent is much smaller and the stress lessened to a great degree.

3. Hypo-salinity in QT is good but what about the rest of the main tank.

If the main is left without a host, that being fish, the parasite cannot complete it's life cycle. Given enough time to pass the tomont will eventualll excyst and the theronts will perish. I know many suggest just 4 weeks but if you consider all the stages and possible time frames, the absolote least should be 6 weeks.

although treating fish before adding to a tank in the first place is a good idea, it still not a guarantee. As far as treatment you can read a ton of cures & reasons fish get ICK, each case will be different

I would disagree with both of those statements. If you put aside hobbyist "experiences" and look solely at the provable evidence surrounding this parasite, it is easily beaten and can be done effectively 100% of the time. Hobbyists may have many popular remedies but there are at this point only 3 proven cures. Hyposalinity, copper and the 4 day transfer method.

but while having many tangs I find three things that was very successful in preventing it. One quality water, two stress (water quality can cause higher stress, also aggressive fish mates) & three not proved but man from what I've seen first hand the garlic.

Stress is a factor in any animals health but to suggest it can trigger a parasite event such as this is simpley not true. Given what we know about C. irritans and has been scientifically proven, it cannot simpley manifest itself from nowhere. True garlic is a powerful antioxidant but in using it for this type of application, there is no way of knowing what amount is effective, for what time frame, at what level of theront densitity does it become less effective, would garlic continue to aid a fish with a supressed immune system, how would heavy daily doses affect the liver and kidney..... etc, etc.

It is always a good idea to do some searching & reading on the subject first hand, get to know what your dealing with, please do a search on ICK.

Hehe... on that we agree...

Cheers
Steve

 

[steve-s]

I have learned my lesson. I will never put anything in my tank again without qt.

Very good news!!

I still am not really sure I have ick yet. This morning when I turned on the lights my clowns were asleep in the hole they dug in the sand. The same fish had a few spots on her but not as many as yesterday. The sand in my tank is like sugar. I don't want to do anything drastic yet. How long do I have before it gets bad?

At this point you can still play watch and wait. C. irritans will not typically become a serious issue for the first 7-14 days depending on tank conditions, water quality and temperature. Could very well be sand but you will begin to see some type of recognizable "pattern" eventually.

What does gilling or heavey breathing look like? She is move her mouth alot open and closed but I don't see any rapid gill movement. Of course I am use to dealing with huge gold fish, not small clownfish. I had A problem with my heater last week. It over heated the tank to 88 and then went out. ( I replaced it). She has been breathing like this since that day.Her different breathing was what made think there was something wrong. All of the fish were very inactive for a few days. They are fine now.

Excessive heat can be quite stressful to fish species. The higher it gest the more it affects the pH of the fish's blood thereby surpessing the immune response and often leaves the fish open to attack from opportunistic bacteria and certain parasites (like monogeneans). That is not to suggest what happened here but just to make you aware that it can.

Given the species of fish involved, you should also be on the look out for Brooklynella.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Scooterman]

Steve I've read that there are other host for ICK, do you have more information on that? One the second one, I didn't mean stress would trigger it just make conditions worst for the fish with ICK, my bad for not clarifying that & for the other disagreement that is basing what I've read that ICK can have other host than fish, so I do stand corrected, that is why I did recommend reading but It seems like I'm reading conflicting articles from professionals, I'll have to go dig them up for you to help clarify that for me. I do agree on the catching them with little stress if you can in a loaded tank that would be great.

 

[Boomer]

Steve

without a host and up to a year with a host

Where did you see that ??? I do not buy it

Scoot

other host for ICK

It is an obligated maine fish parasite...........period

 

[Scooterman]

http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.php

In this article he says remove fish so no other inhabitants would get infected, can you check this out and clarify please, thanks Steve.

 

[Boomer]

How come you missed this

Note that Cryptocaryon irritans requires a fish host. They cannot complete their life cycle with the rock, sand, or any invertebrates.

I think what he means is that the "others" may be caring ick, just kinda stuck to them.

 

[shallowreef]

I don't know what type of tang it is but i have a blue (hippo) tang and if i look at him wrong he gets ich. But even if he does get it, its gone the next day,or even that same day. If it last longer than like two days then i get worried. I find its best to quaratine the fish and dose him with copper, or some kind of medecine. Just my opinion though. What type of tang is it? i didn't catch it if you said it earlier on.

 

[steve-s]

Steve

without a host and up to a year with a host

Where did you see that ??? I do not buy it

As far as I know the "experiment" was never duplicated but given the results, the possibility exists however slim....
http://www.petsforum.com/personal/trevor-jones/marineich.html

Burgess and Matthews (1994) were attempting to maintain a viable population of C. irritans which could be used in later studies. To maintain the parasite populations, they needed host fish in order for the trophonts to feed and continue the life cycle. Each host fish was only used once in a process of serial transition such that none of the hosts would die or develop an immunity. While the procedure worked very well and enabled them to maintain populations for some time, the viability of the populations decreased with time and none of the 7 isolates they used survived more than 34 cycles, around 10 to 11 months. They suggest this is due to senescence and aging in cell lines is well recognised in Ciliophora.

The presence of aging cell lines in C. irritans suggests that an aquarium that has been running for longer than 12 months without any additions is unlikely to have any surviving "Ich" parasites, yet another exception to "Ich" always being present.

Cheers
Steve