DIY Refugiums, any help?

[cwcross]

Nice very nice. But what are the negatives? If this was the best way to go you would think everyone would be doing it. Not to sound negative but someone has to get the other side of the story. Thanks for the info.

I haven't seen any negetives so far. I think most of the problem is you have to rotate your mud so that the bed does not become oversaturated with bacteria and phosphates etc. This is where the bowls come in. In a deep bed, H2S bubbles can be problematic. If you just take out a bowl and dump it, you don't have to worry about this. Makes it really easy to manage your beds. The water will not have that sparkeling quality as does a highly skimmed and polished aquarium. You will see particulate floating around. Not so much as to be displeasing, but it is noticeable.

People do what they like and tanks have a long turnover rate. It takes a while for things to change. Also, there is no real testing done. Just peoples opinions and so on.

Before the berlin system and LR, it was 4 inches crushed coral and canister filters. Then LR and skimmers. Now we have DSB's, Jaubert Plenums and Mud based ecosystems. I personally like the philosophy of the ecosystem setup. I use it and have no problems and it is very low maintenance. If you try it, you can tell for yourself. I've never run a skimmer. I have run a DSB and cannister before. The Mud Fuge is much easier and more robust than what I had before.

Collin

 

[cwcross]

Thanks for the input C.. I have heard from many people that they have caulerpa in the refugiums, all the books that I have read say caulerpa is a good type the use. How is it C, that you don't have any hair algae in your main tank, but have it in your refuge? Do you have a lot of tangs in your tank? Ryan

For herbivores in my 75, I have one yellow tang and about 10 hermits, 2 emerald crabs (they are great IMHO) 15 turbos, 7 narsius, 3 lettuce nudi's, 2 fighting conchs. I use either distilled or RO/DI water only and dose with Kalk as needed.

The cleanup crew takes care of the alea in the main and so it can only really grow in my return duct and fuge. The large algea population down there outcompetes the stuff up top and sucks up the nutrients in quick order. I take out hair algea about once/month and culerpa about once/quarter or something like that. I think as long as you don't "cut" the culerpa, but pull it out whole you are OK. However, I have cut mine quite a bit too. I have seen many-many great mini-reefs on ecosystem type setups with loads of culerpa. I don't see it as a problem personally. My tang won't eat it much though.

Sincerely...Collin

 

[pondguy]

C...
Thanks for the advice, I do believe that I will try the MM with the bowls like you suggested, this diffinately seems to be an easy way to change out the mud after a year or so. Question, do you get any detrius build up between and under the bowls or containers? Do you just suck it out during a water change? In my sump now, I have baffels and they tend to slow the water down enough to have the detrius fall out of suspension and accumulate in the bottom of my sump in one area. I know that if I had these bowls then it would accumulate there too. Do you use any type of mechanical filtering between your overflows and sump/refuge like filter sock, or floss? I would like to know where people are getting these filter socks, I would like to use one on occation after I still up the main tank alittle to get detrius out of the rocks and sand bed. Ryan

 

[aquariumdebacle]

There's always an anecdote to go along with someones experiences to justify their point of view: here's mine. I recieved a call from one of our sponsors about a customer that had a tank crash. The client had inadvertantly added salt in the wrong salinity (too Much.) He immediately corrected the situation and brought the parameters back into line. He then watched his entire tank die right before his eyes. I recieved the call a couple days after. I could not figure out what the problem was until they told me that the refugium had died as well and all that was left were the mangroves and some hermit crabs. They then told that all the caulerpa had turned white. That was the answer in my mind and expalined to them that it was not their fault as everyone has been told that caulerpa is good. This mindset has allowed people to become compalcent and rely on this junk because "I've never had any problems with it" Well, some people have had problems with it; and they are ususally catastrophic. I would never recommend caulerpa species and definitely not to beginners seeking advice. Refugiums should be used to isolate an area from the main system; that's all. using them to supplement feeding, filtration, etc. is basically saying in my mind that there's is something that I'm not willing or able to take care of and need this to make up for my lack of planning/lazines to compensate. Take care of your animals, feed them, meet their physical requiremnents before you palce them in the system and leave the refugiums to the animals that inhabit them. They tend to gravitate towards fewer species rather than more and although I'm posittive that some migration takes place it is not enough for even a meager suplementation. I have palced a one gallon jar filled with rubble in my main display: that is a refugium. The organisms that inhabit the refugium inhabit the rest of the system as well. You just don't see them because they are trying to prevent themselves from becoming a meal.

 

[Angelscrx]

Refugiums should be used to isolate an area from the main system; that's all. using them to supplement feeding, filtration, etc. is basically saying in my mind that there's is something that I'm not willing or able to take care of and need this to make up for my lack of planning/lazines to compensate.

You know I don't mind folks stating their opinions but calling people lazy is uncalled for. Just because someone has a different way of doing things doesn't mean it's wrong. If the reason for the guys tank crashing was too much salt then that is the reason for the cualerpa dying as well. If he didn't have the cualerpa what would you have blamed it on? :evil:

I believe that everyone is doing what works for them and some are trying to have a tank that is closer to nature by using macroalgaes as part of their filtration. Even Mangroves, Miracle mud, liverock, cheato, and brillo pad are all used as biological filtration. :idea:

So if you don't like a certain way of doing something please feel free to say so just don't judge others for doing it. :shock:

 

[Angelscrx]

( i would put the quote that lists them from Dan M., but I am a stupid landscaper and can not figure out how to insert the quote option)

If you go to the post of the person you are wanting to quote and look on the bottom right hand corner it has a button that says "Quote". Click on it and a new post box will open with their post quoted in it. Hope that helps?

 

[cwcross]

C...
Thanks for the advice, I do believe that I will try the MM with the bowls like you suggested, this diffinately seems to be an easy way to change out the mud after a year or so. Question, do you get any detrius build up between and under the bowls or containers? Do you just suck it out during a water change? In my sump now, I have baffels and they tend to slow the water down enough to have the detrius fall out of suspension and accumulate in the bottom of my sump in one area. I know that if I had these bowls then it would accumulate there too. Do you use any type of mechanical filtering between your overflows and sump/refuge like filter sock, or floss? I would like to know where people are getting these filter socks, I would like to use one on occation after I still up the main tank alittle to get detrius out of the rocks and sand bed. Ryan

Ok well, to be honest. The bowl idea was one I had after I set mine up. I just have mud in the bottom of my fuge with algea in it. However, there is absolutely no reason the bowls won't work. When I next rotate out my mud, I will put it into bowls. If you do it, you will be the first to try this method that I know or have ever heard of. Therefore, you MUST tout it as the "cross method" if it works. Just kidding.

However, it will work. You just need bowls deep enough to give you about 2-3 inches and large enough to hold the appropriate amount of mud.

I'm sure you will get detrius under the bowls. However, that is the beauty of it. You can just stop the pumps, take out the bowls, vacume the bottom and then put the bowl back in. Your pods may have to get atheletic to jump from bowl to bowl but that will be good excersize for them. Ideally the bowls rims should make a nice close fit between themselves. You may have to improvise here or use some ingenuity. I actually read about keeping the algea in a bowl to from somewhere else I can't remember now. It a makes great sense though. I am going to transition my setup to the one I am describing to you within the next several months.

I can't find the filter sock link. They are not easily found. I ordered mine from an online aquarium source. They are pretty big so I put mine around the inside of my drain section in the fuge. I haven't done it for months. My detrius must dissapears for the most part. I don't really do anything to control it, except feed lightly and blow it off my rocks every once in a while. I'm sure it is sinking down into the 1/2 inch of course sand I have in my main tank. I will begin to slowly rotate this sand at some point to to control phosphates if I ever need to.

Let me know if you decide to try it. I would love to hear about it...

Sincerely...Collin

 

[cwcross]

aquariumdebacle,

I am not trying to justify anything. Culerpa may very well not be the best algea. It may even be the worst. I only know I have not had problems with it. Another thing I know is that I have a friend who has an aquarium maintenance business. He has over 50 setups in the area, all having MM fuges with culerpa. The sizes range from 25 gallons to over 500 gallons. Many of these tanks are over 10 years old. None has had a problem with Culerpa.

Tanks can crash for many reasons. Most of them involve a mistake, poor maintenance, or poor husbandry. Some may be random chance. Some may also be killer Culerpa gone wild. I don't know. I know my tank is doing fine now. I hope it continues that way.

Sincerely...Collin

 

[Llarian]

I'd be really interested to hear Mojo chime in on this thread, since his approach is pretty much the exact opposite. That would be a fun argument with lots of ideas on both sides to wrap my brain around.

*hint* =)

-Dylan

 

[pondguy]

I can't find the filter sock link. They are not easily found. I ordered mine from an online aquarium source. They are pretty big so I put mine around the inside of my drain section in the fuge.


Does anyone know where I can get a filter sock?

 

[Angelscrx]

Have you tried your LFS or Petsmart? I got mine from Petsmart.

 

[mojoreef]

I'd be really interested to hear Mojo chime in on this thread, since his approach is pretty much the exact opposite

Oh yea drag me into this I don't really have a problem with folks that don't want to use a skimmer and use mud/sand refugiums with calurpa, its their tank, so no problem. AS always though their are a couple of cons with every system so I will throw a few things out.
First one is the calling of this type of system natural, its not, not even close to a natural reef system of any kind, but that is just a small thing.
I think the most important thing here is to make sure we address the type of tank being used and what it is being used for. With the lack of a skimmer and the use of calurpas and mud/sand substraights you are creating a higher nutrient system with all sorts of added chemicals/elements via the mud and a good amount of chemicals introduced via the calurpas. Now this is ok but beware what you are going to keep and make sure the corals are compatable with this system, ie softies and some lps. So if you are going to keep these types of corals only no problemo.
SOme thoughts on other stuff.
1. A skimmer IMHO is an absolute for a reef tank regardless. You can plumb your system so you still get the planktonic critters into your system and then have the skimmer remove the excess along with all the other organics down line. Remember the planktonic critters will bloom and die off on their time frame not yours, so having something to control them along with the other nutrients is a good idea no matter what type of tank you are going to keep. This cant take would be a simple problem in a tank and correct it for you rather then making it a huge problem or a crash.
2. The use of calurpa is something I have never understood. It is such a nasty piece of vegetation and can harm your tank like you would never believe. From growth inhibitors or toxins its just not something I will ever put in my system. Now i do understand folks that want to use vegetation to fight off vegetation, but calurpa is a bad choice IMHO, try a less toxic type of vegi.
3. On the mud system I know folks that use it sucessfully and folks that have ad problems with it so it is a toss up. For me the good thing is that you replace it so that combats the eventual clogging and demise of a substraight. The main problem I have with it, or what scares me about it is the actual content, huge amount of iron and silica/quartz would make me shy away from it right away.

Remember folks it is absolutely critical that when you are designing your system that you understand what kind of corals your going to keep and make sure the system fits into creating the type of ecosystem you are going to create. or your not going to have a lot of fun with this hobby.


hope it helps

Ohhh and you can get the socks at aquatic ecosystems

Mike

 

[cwcross]

First one is the calling of this type of system natural, its not, not even close to a natural reef system of any kind, but that is just a small thing.
I think the most important thing here is to make sure we address the type of tank being used and what it is being used for. With the lack of a skimmer and the use of calurpas and mud/sand substraights you are creating a higher nutrient system with all sorts of added chemicals/elements via the mud and a good amount of chemicals introduced via the calurpas. Now this is ok but beware what you are going to keep and make sure the corals are compatable with this system, ie softies and some lps. So if you are going to keep these types of corals only no problemo.

I think this is accurate. I have softies, and lps in my tank. The only sps (and this is sometimes debated) is a horn coral (hydnophora). All are doing very well. Regarding the Culerpa though, I have never really looked into it from a technical perspective. However, if it is putting out growth inhibitors, my corals sure don't know it. Maybe it has to do with the size of the tank and the relative amount of culerpa. I don't have that much because I don't let it propogate too much. I mainly like it because it makes a nice place for hair algea to attach and makes it really easy for me to take out as it attaches to the top of the fronds, right at the water surface. I just pluck it out 123.

SOme thoughts on other stuff.
1. A skimmer IMHO is an absolute for a reef tank regardless. You can plumb your system so you still get the planktonic critters into your system and then have the skimmer remove the excess along with all the other organics down line. Remember the planktonic critters will bloom and die off on their time frame not yours, so having something to control them along with the other nutrients is a good idea no matter what type of tank you are going to keep. This cant take would be a simple problem in a tank and correct it for you rather then making it a huge problem or a crash.

Not sure I agree here. Maybe if you are trying to grow corals that need very nutrient limited water like hard to keep sps's or somesuch. If you skim very lightly maybe you can keep plankton and DOM's up. However, if you skim aggressively the levels will stay lower.

2. The use of calurpa is something I have never understood. It is such a nasty piece of vegetation and can harm your tank like you would never believe. From growth inhibitors or toxins its just not something I will ever put in my system. Now i do understand folks that want to use vegetation to fight off vegetation, but calurpa is a bad choice IMHO, try a less toxic type of vegi.

OK, I'm interested in why culerpa is so bad? Sell me! I don't see it hurting anything and thousands of people use this with no ill effects.

3. On the mud system I know folks that use it sucessfully and folks that have ad problems with it so it is a toss up. For me the good thing is that you replace it so that combats the eventual clogging and demise of a substraight. The main problem I have with it, or what scares me about it is the actual content, huge amount of iron and silica/quartz would make me shy away from it right away.

Why does this scare you? silica is a good adsorbant and very inert. Silica is also called diatomacious earth. The reason is because diatoms in the sea die and leave their skelatons. Unless you have high acidity, they will not really affect anything to my knowledge. Silicates are another story. But these are a different horse. Quarts again is very inert. Your aquarium glass is basically the same thing, excepting it has an amorphorous structure. Both are Silica based though. Iron? The earth is basically made of iron. Certain types of iron complexes are toxic. Most aren't. What is found in mud has been around the block and is largely in its lowest state. Iron itself is not bad. If I am wrong, tell me how? Also, about 40% of the MM is organics, primarily in the form of humic materials. These are great chelators and will help control heavy metals and other toxins in the tank. They will also provide a great source for infauna growth to make good plankton and bio-diversity. I don't want to really debate Mud systems vs. berlin systems. I don't think there is an answer here. Just people who have either had success or problems. However, sticking with Mud systems, why does it scare you?

Remember folks it is absolutely critical that when you are designing your system that you understand what kind of corals your going to keep and make sure the system fits into creating the type of ecosystem you are going to create. or your not going to have a lot of fun with this hobby.

I think this is good advice. However, I'm not sure it is clear that one sort of system is better for one thing or the other. Is this documented somewhere, or been researched in a controlled environment? If so, I would much like to see some links so I can read them. I haven't been able to find much myself. Here is a well written link explaining why mud is good:

http://www.marshreef.com/modules.php?name=Sections&op=viewarticle&artid=5

I haven't found any in couterpoint.

hope it helps

Ohhh and you can get the socks at aquatic ecosystems

Mike

 

[wrassehole]

do any of you use filter pads before the sump? they really help keep the big stuff out.

 

[pondguy]

I have been using a filter pad in my sump to help clean out the larger particles and also to catch the string algae that finds its way down the overflow tubes. It works for me, but hard to clean out. that is why I am going to try the filter socks. Ryan

 

[mojoreef]

I think this is accurate. I have softies, and lps in my tank. The only sps (and this is sometimes debated) is a horn coral (hydnophora). All are doing very well. Regarding the Culerpa though, I have never really looked into it from a technical perspective. However, if it is putting out growth inhibitors, my corals sure don't know it. Maybe it has to do with the size of the tank and the relative amount of culerpa. I don't have that much because I don't let it propogate too much. I mainly like it because it makes a nice place for hair algea to attach and makes it really easy for me to take out as it attaches to the top of the fronds, right at the water surface. I just pluck it out 123.

Collin there are a few good threads on RF that go into detail of exactly what the pros and cons are, its a good read. Again this has to do with the corals you keep, Soft corals as a general rule play by the same rules as does calurpas, so their defences are more adapted to resisting it.

I think this is accurate. I have softies, and lps in my tank. The only sps (and this is sometimes debated) is a horn coral (hydnophora). All are doing very well. Regarding the Culerpa though, I have never really looked into it from a technical perspective. However, if it is putting out growth inhibitors, my corals sure don't know it. Maybe it has to do with the size of the tank and the relative amount of culerpa. I don't have that much because I don't let it propogate too much. I mainly like it because it makes a nice place for hair algea to attach and makes it really easy for me to take out as it attaches to the top of the fronds, right at the water surface. I just pluck it out 123.

The way I look at it is thier is going to be a constant production of bacteria and other placktonic life forms, specially if you incorporate the use of a refugium. A good skimmer, plumbed properly down the line just insures the clean up of the excess, also if you run into bigger problems its a great fail safe. When Eric B was over at my home it was the first thing he said, " If I had my skimmer on I could have saved my tank from crashing" Just a insurance policy.

OK, I'm interested in why culerpa is so bad? Sell me! I don't see it hurting anything and thousands of people use this with no ill effects.

Again if you do the search you can get a host of detailed info Collin, but the bottom line is thier are other forms of vegis that can be used with out the toxins, risk of sexual and so on. I am not saying you should use vegi's just pick a better one then the vast majority of calurpas.

Why does this scare you?

For me its just more of a why bother type of thing thats all. Silica does disolve at lower depths where acids come from bacteria action, how much and how often I am not sure. Also diatomacious earth form of it is loaded up with Phoshates to. On the Iron its more of the total quantity in MM, thier is a ton and Iron is a nutrient in unto itself. Again Collin for me its a why bother thing. If given the choice between MM and a DSB, I would take the MM, but I would change it out more often.

I think this is good advice. However, I'm not sure it is clear that one sort of system is better for one thing or the other

Collin coral growth and survival is a product of its enviroment. Your not going to find acropora staghorns in a lagoon or in a mangrove swamp. and your also not going to dendro's or cataphilia's on a reef top. What I am trying to say is that your corals have needs and desires in order for them to flourish, If you wish to set up a tank with higher nutrients and lower lighting, then do so and your corals will flourish. If you are going to keep a reef top type tank with SPS and such then you need to set up a tank that is low nutrient and high light.

Mike

 

[Curtswearing]

Maybe if you are trying to grow corals that need very nutrient limited water like hard to keep sps's or somesuch. If you skim very lightly maybe you can keep plankton and DOM's up. However, if you skim aggressively the levels will stay lower.

I have never had a growth problem with softies or other animals that utilize Dissolved Organic Materials in my skimmed tank. Frankly, I don't even buy the "overskimming argument". When you consider the fact that both Nitrogen in it's various forms and Phosphorus are DOM's, it seems to be an impossibility to me. IMO, if you filled up a tank with saltwater made from RO/DI water that tested zero for N, P, and C, used a salt mix that had zero N, P, and C (doesn't exist BTW...this is theoretical), all it would take would be one single autotrophic bacterium (basically...able to make it's own food) whether it be photoautotrophic or chemoautotrophic, to land on the surface of the water and you would have DOM. One of the species that aquarists most commonly know of would be cyanobacteria as they fix their own N as well as C from CO2. The H is obviously already in the water. You couldn't stop this process if you tried. I wish I was autotrophic. I would choose to create steak for my food. LOL

As you likely know, I keep mantis shrimp. Take a look at a lobster. It is a large mass but quite a large portion of it is non-digestable exoskeleton. Blender mush and fish poop are much more effective as nutrients for corals than plankton. We just cannot generate the quantity of plankton in our tanks to match the ocean (and if we did, boy would our tanks be filled with algae).

 

[Curtswearing]

Doggone it Mike,

I had no idea you were responding to this thread at the same time.

Here's my post on Activated Defense Systems. from this thread.

 

[cwcross]

I have never had a growth problem with softies or other animals that utilize Dissolved Organic Materials in my skimmed tank. Frankly, I don't even buy the "overskimming argument".

I read the article you posed. I think the following quote sums it up best.

"This lack of understanding may be leading aquarists to fear things that are not a problem, and to miss things that are."

The whole article basically defines the DOM's, POM's etc. and then goes on to say they are poorly understood and haven't been quantitated in a reef system.

You state that your softie/LPS tank has no ill effects of being skimmed. I'm sure you are right. My tank has no problem not being skimmed. I'm also sure I am right. I spent about an hour last night looking up instances of people using ecosystem filtration to grow sps and clams with no skimmer. They had no problems either and loved thier systems. In fact, I have found no evidence against the method for any sort of setup.

Then on top of this, the industry is flooded with hearsay and anectodal stories on both sides of the equation. That is why I get back to my main point. I don't think it matters either way. My opinion is that a skimmer is only good for polishing the water if you have a Mud fuge or maybe even a properly functioning DSB. However, I agree with Mike. Between and DSB and a Mud Fuge, I'll take the MM fuge and turn the mud over more often. I think this is key. They link I posted earlier uses some actual experiments to look at the effectiveness of Mud fuges as a nutrient recycler. They have been scientifically shown to be among the most effective nutrient recyclers available and in the wild also. This topic has been studied ad infinitem by marine biologists and oceanographers. If you are bare bottom, then a skimmer is probably much more necessary. Or if you want highly polished water. I'm just reasoning though based on what I've read. Like I said. I've had two tanks and not a skimmer on either. Both did, and are doing, fine without one.

Sincerely...Collin

 

[Angelscrx]

So we can agree to disagree on both systems. Lots of pros and cons and tons of opinions for and against either system. I guess its a matter of personal preference. Thanks