dKH rising? How to fix it? Should i?

[menace78]

After 1.5 months setup my tank has always stayed at a dKH of 12°.
At 2 months it went up to 13°, and now at 2.5 months it's went up to 15°.

Is this to high?
If not how high is to high?
Any clue why it's rising?
And If it's bad, How do I lower it?

All other parameters are perfect
ammonia: 0
nitrite: 0
nitrate: <5
Phosphates: 0.25
PH: 8.2
Calcium: 480
SG: 1.025
Temp: 80°

40h hex with a Live DSB and ~70# of LR.

Any advice would be grate.

 

[OldFishMan]

Hello;

What are you dosing for supplements ?

Need a little more information.

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Definition of Bored : "To be without options or variables!"

"OFM"
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Enjoy!

OFM

 

[menace78]

Well I only have a bare minimum CUC of 18 mixed snails and 2 Juvinile Clowns that are about 1" right now and no corals yet so the only thing I have had to add so far was 1/4 tsp of Kent marine colium suplament on 2 occasions just to keep it at ~460-480.

Other than that I have only done water changes (10% every week) and topoff water.
I use Instant Ocean salt with RO DI water for changes, and Just the RO DI for topoffs.

I use a CPR Bac-Pac 2 skimmer with the airstone mod and other small compartment is being used as a tiny fuge for cheato. I also have a HOB Hot magnum 250 that is just pumping water (no media) and have about 15x turnover for flow in the tank.

 

[jezzeaepi]

no corals yet so the only thing I have had to add so far was 1/4 tsp of Kent marine colium suplament on 2 occasions just to keep it at ~460-480.

You have no corals so stop adding a calcium/alkalinity supplement. Then your calcium and alkalinity will stop going up. Maintain calcium about 400-430. At 480+ all your doing is percipitating the calcium out of the water and onto your equipment. Since you have no corals, all you need to do to maintain it is do water changes.

 

[Kurt_Nelson]

...

All other parameters are perfect
ammonia: 0
nitrite: 0
nitrate: <5
Phosphates: 0.25
PH: 8.2
Calcium: 480
SG: 1.025
Temp: 80°

This doesn't help your original question, but phosphates at 0.25ppm is NOT perfect! In fact, if you're using RO/DI water, I'd say there's probably something wrong with your test kit... that's a LOT of phosphate - more than I'd expect from just feeding. Are you sure your RO/DI is plumbed correctly? Have you tested the source water coming from it?

Agree with others though... 480 Ca really isn't needed. Anything in the 380-400 range will keep your coralline algae going. You'll have to dose your Instant Ocean with calcium to get it up to 400 for your PWC since it comes in much lower.

 

[menace78]

You have no corals so stop adding a calcium/alkalinity supplement. Then your calcium and alkalinity will stop going up. Maintain calcium about 400-430. At 480+ all your doing is percipitating the calcium out of the water and onto your equipment. Since you have no corals, all you need to do to maintain it is do water changes.

I do know that it has been suggested by many people that keeping a calcium level of 460-480 in a newly established tank was a good thing for accelerating coralline growth, and the snails need it as well.. I have only dosed to keep it at 480 (thus the very light doses), witch was the base reading from the Instant Ocean salt mix..

Is this wrong, or a bad idea? I have seen this said on many sites.

 

[Kurt_Nelson]

If you read Instant Ocean at 480ppm, you either have a bad Ca test kit, or you're reading the test wrong. With RO/DI water, you should be getting readings between 340-360 - more likely the lower end of that range.

Coralline will do just fine with Ca levels in the 380-400 range. Nearly all LPS corals will do fine in that same range too.

 

[menace78]

ok I'll stop putting any calcium into the tank but that still doesn't answer the original question?

I have in the 2.5 months of running this tank, I only dosed calcium 1/2 of one days dose over the entire time.
I just had a buddy come over and test my water to make sure my kit wasn't messing up the reading and got the same results as well.

My base dKH before adding any calcium was 12°, as is my water change water. so 12° are coming from the salt. it reads 1° as FW before salt mix.

Could this be bad salt? what ells in the tank could add 2° of dKH? Could it really be from the tiny bit of calcium I added?

 

[menace78]

This doesn't help your original question, but phosphates at 0.25ppm is NOT perfect! In fact, if you're using RO/DI water, I'd say there's probably something wrong with your test kit... that's a LOT of phosphate - more than I'd expect from just feeding. Are you sure your RO/DI is plumbed correctly? Have you tested the source water coming from it?

OK Guess I should have stated this. wasn't thinking about it till you just said that.
Yes my Phosphates are not perfect. when I first setup my tank I used declorinated tap water and my phosphates were up at 1 :shock:. I was told the tap water was the problem and promptly got the RO DI. the phosphates have went to .25 in just 2 water changes and I expect there should be no trace after next water change. If not I plan on adding a phosphate remover to get it there and then see if i have any traces comming back or not.
I tested the water after getting the RO DI and the phosphates were : tap water(>1) RO DI(0).

 

[ReefArtist]

My base dKH before adding any calcium was 12°, as is my water change water. so 12° are coming from the salt. it reads 1° as FW before salt mix.

That is VERY high for fresh salt, so I'd make sure I test was correct (possible take to LFS for double check). If the salt really is at 12 dKH I personally would not use it in my tank. That is way to high for fresh salt without a cal reactor causing the high ALK.

 

[Kurt_Nelson]

What exactly did you use to boost your Calcium? If you used a 2-part solution to boost your Ca, then your alk will rise along with your calcium. A "balanced" alkalinity reading for 480 ppm Calcium is about 16 dkH. If you used just straight TurboCalcium, then I'm not sure why your alk is climbing. Either way, adding just 1/4 teaspoon of anything in a 40g tank, as you comment, will not raise your Ca levels from 360 ppm (where IO mixes up, at best, with RO/DI water) to 480 ppm... so something is amiss. Maybe someone else can offer an explanation...

Also... phosphates hinder things taking up calcium. Having phosphates in the tank kind of negates the extra calcium. Doing 10% changes only reduces that 0.25 ppm phosphate reading to 0.23 ppm after the water change. Most likely, it's being sucked out by algae, but I'd sure get some phosphate remover (iron oxide) or a PolyFilter in there to get rid of it. It'll only cause you issues down the road.

Again... I'm wondering about the accuracy of your calcium test. IO just doesn't mix up anywhere near 400. And it's pretty consistent that way.

 

[menace78]

What exactly did you use to boost your Calcium?

I used Kent Marine Liquid Calcium and it reads :
add 1/4 tsp per 50g each day, based on animal load. For best results, use Kent marine Superbuffer-dKH or new Pro-buffer dKH to support system KH. Strontium & Molybdenum supplement will enhance performance. May be used with Kalkwasser to increase calcium level.

Reading that I would assume it's not balanced but I also assumed that It should drop the 12° dKH I already had.

Also... phosphates hinder things taking up calcium. Having phosphates in the tank kind of negates the extra calcium. Doing 10% changes only reduces that 0.25 ppm phosphate reading to 0.23 ppm after the water change. Most likely, it's being sucked out by algae, but I'd sure get some phosphate remover (iron oxide) or a PolyFilter in there to get rid of it. It'll only cause you issues down the road.

Thank you for the clarification on that and I will throw in some RowaPhos (my buddy said it works really well)

Again... I'm wondering about the accuracy of your calcium test. IO just doesn't mix up anywhere near 400. And it's pretty consistent that way.

As stated above. A Buddy of mine came over and tested the water with his kit and got the same readings.
We both use the master reef and master SW kits from API.

My only other thought is the salt I'm using right now is what i got from the person i bought most of my equipment from.
Is there any reason or way they could have added something to boost calcium and KH to the salt?

Either way I'm going to go get another 5g bucket of IS salt before my next water change and test it compared to the stuff i have now.

Hopefully that's the problem.
If it is. what should i do about how high it is right now?
I'm trying not to use any chemical's that aren't part of the normal supplements. So least invasive would be what I'm looking for.

And thank everyone for there help.. It's really appreciated. Sometimes all this seems a little overwhelming

 

[jezzeaepi]

Based on your original description I assumed it to be a balanced additive, but sounds like it was just calcium. I would defintly throw away the salt, then I would use a different brand of test kits. Also, double check your salinity. Increasing the salinity of the water will have the effect of raising calcium and KH as well. Perhaps youve boosted your salinity without knowing it?

 

[Kurt_Nelson]

I was wondering that also jezzeapi...

Menace78 - are you measuring that 1.025 with a refractometer, or a swing arm hydrometer. Swing arms can be off by quite a bit, so your salinity might not be what you think it is if you're using one. Even so... I can imagine it'd be off the amount you're talking with 480 ppm Ca.

Yes... I'd toss that bag of salt if it was opened and you don't know the history of it. That, combined with the fact you started your tank with tap water, could be causing you the issues you're seeing.

Regarding the instructions on the Liquid Calcium... those instructions are kind of worthless. Ticks me off they put them on there. If you're shooting for a specific Calcium concentration, you need to use a calculator like this...

http://jdieck1.home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/chemcalc.html

... to figure out how much to dose. If you play with that calculator, you'll see that just adding 1/4 teaspoon, once or twice, really isn't going to do anything for you. I've got another good link for correcting ca/alk problems, but I don't have it on the computer I'm at now. I'll post it later tonight, assuming someone doesn't know what one I'm talking about and posts it before me!

Regarding getting your alkalinity levels back down, just doing water changes (with different salt) should get them back down over time. Also, the API calcium and alkalinity test kits, in my opinion, are a good value. They do the job, and fairly accurately from what I've seen. Salifert are definitely better, but I have/use both brands and they very rarely tell me anything different.

 

[OldFishMan]

Hello;

Good points fellas!

Send me that salt --- that will keep me from dosing Alk for 8-hours. If Alk is 12-dkh, not bad. 15-dkh with that much Calcium should equal a SNOW storm if the PH is normal.

I will say get a refractometer for $50.00 and recheck this. API makes a good KH test that I use every day and it is cheap --- at Dr. Forster & Smith anyway!

I have a swing arm hydrometer --- keep it clean and have a local fish store LFS check the water for you. Then mark your hydrometer if it is off for the correct reading.

Coralline does not like a lot of light and prefers Blue/Green light. I grow a lot of it in the shady areas of my tanks and it dies on the glass exposed to high light. Magnesium should be kept high 1300-ppm for good Coralline growth.

I would not worry about Phosphates unless you get unwanted Algae growth --- then you can start lowering it. I would grow some good Algae and lower your Nitrates and Phosphates naturally in a sump. A good weekend project. Food is the main culprit here with Phosphates.

I would back off on dosing Calcium and Alkalinity for a couple of week and dose some Epson Salt to raise Magnesium if needed. 64-OZ to 1-gallon of RO. Takes a lot to raise it, so be patient and take your time.

Water chemistry is not hard --- just time consuming.

Calcium 360-450 ppm try to keep it in the middle.

Alkalinity 7 - 11 dkh --- try to keep it in the middle also.

Salinity : 1.0222 to 1.026 --- FOWLR : 1.024 to 1.026 --- REEF.

Borate will raise your Alkalinity reading as it builds up in your tank if you use a buffer with Borate.

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Enjoy!

OFM

 

[Boomer]

Kurt, you are on a roll, great posts, keep it up

 

[Kurt_Nelson]

Kurt, you are on a roll, great posts, keep it up

Well, shoot... here I saw a response from Boomer and wiped my brow thinking I was off the hook! :lol:

Anyway... menace78, here's the article I mentioned regarding how to fix calcium/alkalinity imbalances...

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm

 

[ziggy]

Do you have aquacultured rock? Ive heard "home made" or "man made" rock has really high Alk. Thats my 2 cents.

 

[menace78]

Based on your original description I assumed it to be a balanced additive, but sounds like it was just calcium. I would defintly throw away the salt, then I would use a different brand of test kits. Also, double check your salinity. Increasing the salinity of the water will have the effect of raising calcium and KH as well. Perhaps youve boosted your salinity without knowing it?

Salt gone. But I've always been partial to API kits. after all these years, they've never steered me wrong yet. My buddy brought his kit over and got the exact same readings as me.

Although it's funny that you mention raising salinity since I over the past month raised from 1.022 to 1.025 (slow drip of salt mixed water for makeup instead of FW) to prepare for corals in the future.
Could that be part of the problem?

Do you have aquacultured rock? Ive heard "home made" or "man made" rock has really high Alk. Thats my 2 cents.

As a matter of fact I do have about 3/4 aquacultured rock in the tank but it came from a different tank that was housing corals for over 2 years with no problems so I don't think it has anything to do with it.
But you made me worry there for a minute


I do currently have just a swing arm and with my buddy's help (again ) I found out that my reading was off by less than half a point under actual. I plan on upgrading stuff like that after i get all the $$$ equipment fully sorted out first.
Still need MH and Trying to figure out how to setup and hide some kind of fuge in a Hex Tanks cabinet is proving to be a headache.

Thank everyone for there advice and help..
I'll continue with water changes and chime back in, in a few weeks if that doesn't help but I think the problem was the salt.
The new salt is coming out at 380 calcium and 8° dKH so I'm assuming the salt must have been the problem.

 

[OldFishMan]

Hello menace78;

I think your new salt will work out well.

For All:

Don't let this stuff frazzle you. I get my Calcium up to 500 at times ( I keep high Magnesium ) and the other day I didn't test before adding Kalkwasser and caught a SNOW STORM in the making ( I dose slow ).


I have only found a few problems that will kill or injure:

1. Ammonia --- make sure you have adequate biological filtration.

2. A fast PH change --- dose slow and add a very small amount of a new product until you know what it will effect.

3. Temperature extremes and fast changes.

4. Heat from high output lighting --- heat transfer to Corals and life at the high areas of a tank without good cooling water flow causes a lot of problems.

There are a few more, but I can't think of all of them. :lol:

I choose to measure Alkalinity everyday for my dosing, PH can be used and is a good indicator once you know your tank. Just don't chase PH with buffers.

Patience: Things happen slowly in a Reef tank. If something you just aquired starts looking sick or dieing --- don't assume it is your tank or husbandry --- it may have been on it's last leg when you got it.


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"If this don't work, I can always change the water!"

"OFM"
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Enjoy!

OFM