Don't Know Squat

[sihaya]

Lately, I've been trying to survey what is actually "known" in reef keeping... and much to my dismay, I'm starting to think we don't know squat. Pretty much all we *know* is that our tanks need calcium and salt. Maybe it's just me, but everything else seems hardly "proven." We don't know if we really need skimmers or if we really need these 250watt flood lights. We're not sure what or how much we need to feed our corals or exactly how much water flow is really enough (except that it's hard to have too much). And we all know how ugly the BB/DSB debate is!

It's really driving me nuts... and I went to graduate school for Bioethics! You'd think I'd be comfortable with the uncertain by now, but I'm not. The lack of real knowledge in this hobby frustrates me like nothing else!

So to help ease my heart and soul, I'm trying to make what I'm sure will be a very a modest list of what we actually known with some reasonable amount certainty. We do this in law school when we're preparing oral arguments. It's kinda fun... but can be frustrating if you don't follow the rules .

Rules:

1. No opinions or anacdotes (not that these can't be worthwhile, but that's not what this list is about)

2. Please try to site a scientific reference (NOT a hobby article) unless it's something really obvious (like that corals are invertebrates)

3. Be as narrow and specific as possible. So, for example, I'm going to start by saying "the salinity of natural sea water from which most our wild corals come is about 35ppm." Notice I'm not saying that the salinity of our tanks needs to be 35ppm, or that it's 35ppm everywhere in the world. I'm being very narrow and specific.

So what do you all think? Do you guys want to play? I'll start...

1.) The salinity of natural sea water from which most our wild corals come is approx. 35ppm.

 

[CarlaW]

sps need intense lighting!!!


Ah but let me digress for just a moment!!! The more you know, the more you need to know, or so we think. Sometimes too much knowledge just gets you all confused, then you are back to square one. I much more prefer the KISS method. Much less confusing and time wasting. When I have questions, I tend to lean on people who have alot more experience than I do, and I usually use a phone. Sorry, just had to get this out of my head.

 

[sihaya]

Ok, I have to warn you all, I'm going to be a real drill sergeant about this...

sps need intense lighting!!!

What the heck is "sps?" (Yes, I know what sps stands for, but in truth, it's a pretty meaningless classification.)

How do you know "sps" need intense lighting?

What is "intense lighting" exactly?


You see what I mean about being narrow and specific? Break it down for me. For example, tell me something about the lumens/par that hit the surface of the water over some of the indo-pacific reefs.

I tend to lean on people who have alot more experience than I do,

Sure, and experience is truly invaluable... especially in areas where there's so little actual knowledge. But this list is meant to be something a bit different.

 

[sihaya]

Seriously... you know how kids ask "why? why? why? why?" over and over until you're ready to pull your hair out? Well, that's going to be me.

 

[bc_slc]

ok, I will bite:

2) A coral's natural environment has a constant turnover of nutrients and water. Corals are typically exposed to a HUGE amount of water and given the tides and currents of water, this volume of water is essentially new and fresh on a moment to moment basis.

3) Also, the volume of distribution for wastes that are produced by corals/fish/other animals and plants is massive.

These are two of the real challenges of salt water reef keeping in my opinion. We can never replicate exactly these two issues (unless you have a single coral in a huge tank and change the water every hour).

 

[sihaya]

Beautiful, I love it!

 

[CarlaW]

Ok, I have to warn you all, I'm going to be a real drill sergeant about this...

I was never in the military

What the heck is "sps?" (Yes, I know what sps stands for, but in truth, it's a pretty meaningless classification.)

SMALL
POLYP
STONY

How do you know "sps" need intense lighting?

I read it somewhere, I think it was in a book by Eric Borneman.

What is "intense lighting" exactly?

I don't really know either, maybe we should ask GARF.

You see what I mean about being narrow and specific? Break it down for me. For example, tell me something about the lumens/par that hit the surface of the water over some of the indo-pacific reefs.

Heck Sara, I thought you would be able to tell me after you get done reading all of Sanjay's literature for your other thread.


____

 

[sihaya]

Heck Sara, I thought you would be able to tell me after you get done reading all of Sanjay's literature for your other thread.

Haha... I should!! But I may try google scholar too.


And yeah, I know Borneman does use "sps" in his book, but he does also mention lamenting having to do so. I think it's ok to use in casual conversation, but we're preparing oral arguments here! Come on man, you gotta get in the game!

 

[The Apprentice]

What is "intense lighting" exactly?

Ok Charlie Let me jump on this grenade ok
First Sara I will let you know a little about my self I consider myself no expert as anyone who tells you they are a expert has come to the conclusion they know everything.
I have made electricity for over a dozen years and have been a sparky thats KISS for Electrician.

What is "intense lighting" exactly? Well Sara this is defined in most electrical fields as High Intensity Discharge this refers to Bulbs,ballast & fixtures or in your case Luminaires.
These are comprised of 2 main yes their are others but these two are the most important METAL HALIDE and HI Pressure Sodium we won't go into H.P.S. because we don't have the means or the way to MFG a bulb cost wise that would work in gowning Coral & Invertebrates.
You can google this and probably shoot holes in this all day long but from what I have learned and I claim not to be a expert on anything. But a very big member of KISS If you don't know some one will just pick up the phone or read a book. Or give a good friend a e-mail.. Like my friend Charlie a former member of the month

Ok, I have to warn you all, I'm going to be a real drill sergeant about this...



What the heck is "sps?" (Yes, I know what sps stands for, but in truth, it's a pretty meaningless classification.)

How do you know "sps" need intense lighting?

What is "intense lighting" exactly?


You see what I mean about being narrow and specific? Break it down for me. For example, tell me something about the lumens/par that hit the surface of the water over some of the indo-pacific reefs.




Sure, and experience is truly invaluable... especially in areas where there's so little actual knowledge. But this list is meant to be something a bit different.

 

[sihaya]

I think I've been a bit unclear... when I asked what "intense lighting" means, I meant to ask how many lumens qualifies as intense? or, how many par qualifies a light as intense?

Also, there are hundreds of species of "SPS" corals. I'd venture to guess that some are more "picky" about lighting than others. Is there research on this? maybe... I'll have to look into it.

I understand the KISS philosophy, but I'm not looking for it here. Here I want specifics... admittedly, annoyingly so.

 

[sihaya]

Also, what does "need" mean? Does "need" mean they'll die if they don't have it? or just that they'll be weaker? or that they won't grow as fast?

I'm telling you guys, this is a different kind of game I have going here. It's a lawyer's game... this is what we do. It's probably one reason people don't like lawyers But I like it because it breaks things done and gets to the core issues and points in any area where little is know for sure.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

I think I've been a bit unclear... I understand the KISS philosophy, but I'm not looking for it here. Here I want specifics... admittedly, annoyingly so.

"lawyer's game"

Suspect you are on the wrong site, this one is a reefer's game.

Perhaps you are more interested in critiquing than learning facts or opinions. Purpose? Unknown, but possibly little to do with forwarding the state of the hobby. Of those who you have been debating with including the Salt debate, I have learned plenty and appreciate their opinions and input. This is an open forum of enthusiasts who do that, they share opinions on what has been successful for each.

Here's a specific: 100 gallons is twice the volume of 50 gallons under most conditions: 100X = 2 x 50X.

Opinion: A 100 gallon tank is larger than a 50 gallon tank.

Value added: Zero

How about the following:

I personally think that corals do best in a tank that is maintained with the cleanest water by whatever means is personally preferred or possible for the hobbyist.

Fact? doubtful by definition
Valuable opinion? Perhaps.
Polite and friendly? Hopefully
On subject to this forum? Absolutely.

Respectfully, do you have anything to offer or any personal questions you wish answered to enable your personal reef keeping hobby to prosper?
Mike
Merely a clueless cretin with 25 years in the marine aquarium hobby

 

[balogh03]

I agree with mike, I have only been doing this for about 3 years and if i got all the information from facts i probably wouldnt be anywhere. It doesnt really matter what the facts are because there are thousands of different ways to do things and they all might have good results. Just my two-cents
good luck with the rest of your thread

-augustus

 

[DonW]

I was never in the military

I was and you never ask why.:lol:

Don

 

[CarlaW]

I was and you never ask why.:lol:

Don

Never needed to, ah but again I digress.

 

[Meche]

Guys, this is an excercise in logic, if you don't think it gives you any more useful information to help you keep a reef aquarium, then go read another thread.

Sarcastic posts like 100gal is twice the volume of 50gal is a real jackass comment.

 

[Meche]

Conservation of mass.

Whatever we put in our tank, will stay there, until removed.
Common methods of removal are, evaporation, skimmate removal, macro algae harvesting, and fragging.
It may, however, be transformed into another chemical. For example, ammonia to nitrites.

 

[Curtswearing]

I'm going to throw a HUUUUGE monkey wrench into this.

Many (of what the hobby calls SPS) need (what the hobby calls) intense lighting. However, many (of what the hobby calls SPS) do not. A coral that lives in 10 feet of water requires much more lighting than does a coral that's growing on the deep fore-reef. In fact, if you hit one of the latter with 400W MH's, expect a bleaching event because of TOO MUCH light. It might survive, it might become re-infected with another clade of zoox, or it might have originally been infected with one of the less sensitive clades and they adjust and regrow on their own.

I don't have time to dig through my papers right now so I'm including a hobbiest link even though we aren't supposed to. (However, it will explain this in layman's language). http://ozreef.org/library/articles/zonation.html
For those who want more detailed info, Google Coral Reef Zonation.

If you want to get into a technical definition of "need", I propose that people Google "limiting factor".

For instance, phosphorus is a limiting factor for all coral life.

 

[gman0526]

And carbon

 

[Herefishyfishy]

Water cooler game?

Guys, this is an excercise in logic, if you don't think it gives you any more useful information to help you keep a reef aquarium, then go read another thread.

Sarcastic posts like 100gal is twice the volume of 50gal is a real jackass comment.

Perhaps this is best moved to the water cooler string if just a game. This is a family site where we try to be polite to each other's opinion. It is not a lawyer site nor a logic site.

If you enjoy flaming, there are other sites that deal more with that style. Here we try to be friendly if at all possible.