DongShenYin
Active member
How hard is it to convert a non-grounded outlet into a grounded outlet?
Electrical outlets
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jlehigh
Hermit D Crab
Stop by a Dunn lumber or HD and pickup a free wiring pamphlet to cover the basics and safety. I reccomend you have a voltameter, wire, cutters, and pig ties or solder.
Plan for about 30 min per outlet (roughly). While you are at it go ahead and make it a GFCI outlet for safety. Mine have saved my equipment and possibly life a few times.
Plan for about 30 min per outlet (roughly). While you are at it go ahead and make it a GFCI outlet for safety. Mine have saved my equipment and possibly life a few times.
DongShenYin
Active member
If the outlet isn't grounded, then will the GFCI work? My dad says our house is 40-50 years old. We live in New York City. We should be grounded, right?
DonW
R.I.P.
DongShenYin said:
Maybe not. You house is probably knob and tube. The easy way to tell is to pull the outlet and look at the wire. If its romex 3 conductor, you just need to change the outlet and make sure the other end is connected in the panel.
If there are only two wires you probably have knob and tube. 1 hot 1 neutral and youl probably find that any ground you do have will terminate on the neutral bar of your service panel. Youve got your work cut out for you if you want to change it.
Don
DongShenYin
Active member
I don't understand the terms you used. Is there a website I can look at with diagrams and step-by-step instructions? Also, my dad was trying to change a light switch the other day and I heard a "Pop!" before we lost the electricity to half the house. He had to fiddle with the fuses to get the power back. Does that mean we're grounded or not?
DonW
R.I.P.
You used the tern "fuses". Does your house still have fuses?? If it does you more than likely have Knob and tube. Is this just to run your 7g minibow or are planning a bigger project?
Don
Don
DongShenYin
Active member
We have a fusebox on the main floor and circuit breakers in the basement... One time they tripped and my dad switched out all the fuses but we still didn't get power back. We finally had ConEd come over and the guy turned on the breakers in the basement... which we didn't even know we had! So I have no idea what kind of electrical wiring our house has. Oh, and the minibow isn't my only fish tank, I also have a 29g, a 10g, a 5.5g and a 2.5g planted freshwater tanks.
Scooterman
Well-known member
http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1755
I grew up in a house with fuse boxes, it wasn't nice either, and we had them everywhere. In your case, I would see qualified help; this isn't a DIY type project, not in this case. Chances are you may not have grounding, or if any it may be grounding on the added circuits going to the breaker box, at one point additional wiring was added and they use a breaker box. If your set on getting better grounding, you may be opening up a large can of worms, for a GFCI to work properly, you need a continuous ground, from the outlet, to the breaker box, to the fuse box, to earth ground or grounding rod. In modern homes, even the return is common to the ground bus inside the breaker box, I doubt yours will cover this. My best advice is to get qualified help; otherwise messing with this can be dangerous.
I grew up in a house with fuse boxes, it wasn't nice either, and we had them everywhere. In your case, I would see qualified help; this isn't a DIY type project, not in this case. Chances are you may not have grounding, or if any it may be grounding on the added circuits going to the breaker box, at one point additional wiring was added and they use a breaker box. If your set on getting better grounding, you may be opening up a large can of worms, for a GFCI to work properly, you need a continuous ground, from the outlet, to the breaker box, to the fuse box, to earth ground or grounding rod. In modern homes, even the return is common to the ground bus inside the breaker box, I doubt yours will cover this. My best advice is to get qualified help; otherwise messing with this can be dangerous.
DongShenYin
Active member
Yeh, I think it'll be best all around to have an electrician check the wiring of the house anyway. I don't think it's ever been done since we've moved in.
snobanker
Well-known member
If the house is only 40-50 years old you might be able to rule out knob and tube, but even if it isn't I doubt it has individual circuit grounds. Go down in your basement or up in your attic. Look in the rafters/joists ect for individual wires running through the rafters/joists in small ceramic "tubes" or for wires tied off at little round "knobs"where they disappear into the walls...if you have those it is knob and tube....don't even breathe on it....electricians even need a special license in most states to work on it. I used to hate it. Anyway, if its not knob and tube but is two wire with no ground, You can add ground fault protection to these types of systems by replacing a standard duplex receptacle (outlet) with a GFCI. GFCI's do not need a ground to operate because that is not how they work. If you add that GFCI at the beginning of the circuit all the outlets after that one on the same circuit will be protected. But, adding a GFCI to an ungrounded circuit does not make it "grounded" it will not let surge supressor outlet strips work at all for computers, TV's ect. When I was a journeyman electrician and computers were becoming all the rage in homes, people with two wire ungrounded homes used to hire electricians who would install GFCI's and tell people they were grounded so thier surge supressors would work....wrong...you still need an actual ground for that. If I recall correctly a lot of eastern electrical codes required metal conduit for installation. If this is the case a good electrician may be able to tell you if it is being used for the ground....Question, do your receptacle out lets have two "holes" or three "holes"? If it has three it may be grounded but not neccasarily. Over the years people with old two hole outlets on ungrounded systems, changed them out just because of the abundance of three prong cords that started coming out. It doesn't mean it "is" grounded though. If you know for sure that you can isolate your circuit (turn off the breakers with a lamp plugged in until it goes out and you know you have the right circuit) then carefully remove that receptacle and see if a ground wire (green or bare) is hooked up to the receptacle in addition to two others (usually white and black, but could be red and white also). If you are not comfortable with this type of DYI stuff then call a reputable electrician. By the way there is nothing wrong with fuses. In all reality they are safer and better than circuit breakers. They are just more of a pain because they have to be replaced, instead of reset. They are associated with older electrical systems so thats why people like to have them replaced and upgrade their wiring.
DongShenYin
Active member
Some of the outlets in the bedrooms are two-pronged, and some three... I have my computer on the three-pronged one. I'm also going to get a real electician to look at it, there's no need for me to risk my life lol.
Scooterman
Well-known member
snobanker said:
I have to disagree strongly with this remark, GFCI is just what it is looking at to determin if there is an difference in potentical. You can add the GFCi but your defeating the purpose, it won't protect you as per design, also depending on how they are wired, you can GFCI the rest of the outlets or not, you have that choice.
http://www-training.llnl.gov/wbt/hc/Electrical/GFCIworks.html
Look at this simple schematic, any Qualified preson would understand a ground is required to work properly.
snobanker
Well-known member
Scooterman is right...I messed up what I was trying to say. What I was trying to get at is that if you have the old two prong outlets, and want to trade them out for the three prong type the only legal way to do it (without adding a ground wire to the whole system)is put a GFCI type receptacle at the beginning of the circuit then wiring the new three prong outlets so that the are using the GFCI. Then you have to label them as being nongrounded GFCI circuit outlets. This is based on WA State practice and experience of course, but since they follow the NEC and NESC like the rest of the country, I would think it would be the same all over. The reason for labeling the new three prong outlets as being an ungrounded GFCI circuit is so that you know that things like surge supressors won't work if plugged in to them.
The thing about the ground "wire" is that the GFCI will still open without the ground wire attached to the receptacle. You only need a path to ground....when you are getting a shock it is because you are the path to ground. If you become the path to ground(which, again, is how you get shocked) The GFCI will still sense the .005 amp or higher difference in potential it is measuring between hot and neutral and effectivly open it in 1/40th of a second. You may still feel a quick shock, but the idea is that you won't die or be seriously injured. GFCI's are not intended for equipment protection, that is what fuses and circuit breakers are for, they are to protect "us".
If you feel savvy enough to test this out yourself it is really easy...I just did it a second ago to verify........If you own a Vol-con or "wiggins" style electrical tester...not a multimeter, but the two prong "spring" style testers...If you don't know what I mean, don't even try this. I'm sure electrical savvy folks will know. Assuming you have a GFCI circuit in your kitchen with at least one regular outlet after the GFCI...simply test from the shorter "hot" side on the right to the ground hole....the GFCI should trip...it sensed a difference in potential caused by the tester (ordinary testers cant be used to check hot to ground voltage in GFCI circuits, they will trip them...hot to neutral it will read, but not to ground.) Now if you feel like continuing...shut off the circuit at your panel and test nuetral to hot to ensure it is off. Undo the GFCI receptacle from the wall, leaving it hooked up ofcourse, except remove the ground wire from the GFCI. Now after ensuring all is safe, turn the breaker back on. repeat the test at the outlet after the GFCI...the GFCI will still trip even though the ground is not hooked up to it. It still senses the potential difference which is measured between hot and neutral. This will not work at the GFCI itself because by removing the ground you have removed the path to ground...If you do test this at the GFCI itself, then test from "hot" on the right side to a nearby ground , like a screw holding on a nearby switch plate or outlet plate. Then it will work. Remember the purpose of the test is to simulate a ground fault....electricity leaking to ground....(through the tester....and in a real situation "you" would be the electrical tester.
Some examples would be you sticking your finger in the outlet and then touching a plumbing fixture hooked to a grounded water pipe...ground fault..
or
You drop you hair dryer in the tub full of water which has grounded fixtures....ground fault
Remember to be shocked you have to complete a path to ground from electricity. Ever wonder why birds can sit on a power wire??? they have no path to ground.
So yes "you do need a path to ground" for a GFCI to work...you just don't need a ground wire attached to the GFCI outlet itself.
Disclaimer: none of this is meant in any way to cause or suggest that people take on any electrical projects that they don't feel comfortable or experienced to try.
The thing about the ground "wire" is that the GFCI will still open without the ground wire attached to the receptacle. You only need a path to ground....when you are getting a shock it is because you are the path to ground. If you become the path to ground(which, again, is how you get shocked) The GFCI will still sense the .005 amp or higher difference in potential it is measuring between hot and neutral and effectivly open it in 1/40th of a second. You may still feel a quick shock, but the idea is that you won't die or be seriously injured. GFCI's are not intended for equipment protection, that is what fuses and circuit breakers are for, they are to protect "us".
If you feel savvy enough to test this out yourself it is really easy...I just did it a second ago to verify........If you own a Vol-con or "wiggins" style electrical tester...not a multimeter, but the two prong "spring" style testers...If you don't know what I mean, don't even try this. I'm sure electrical savvy folks will know. Assuming you have a GFCI circuit in your kitchen with at least one regular outlet after the GFCI...simply test from the shorter "hot" side on the right to the ground hole....the GFCI should trip...it sensed a difference in potential caused by the tester (ordinary testers cant be used to check hot to ground voltage in GFCI circuits, they will trip them...hot to neutral it will read, but not to ground.) Now if you feel like continuing...shut off the circuit at your panel and test nuetral to hot to ensure it is off. Undo the GFCI receptacle from the wall, leaving it hooked up ofcourse, except remove the ground wire from the GFCI. Now after ensuring all is safe, turn the breaker back on. repeat the test at the outlet after the GFCI...the GFCI will still trip even though the ground is not hooked up to it. It still senses the potential difference which is measured between hot and neutral. This will not work at the GFCI itself because by removing the ground you have removed the path to ground...If you do test this at the GFCI itself, then test from "hot" on the right side to a nearby ground , like a screw holding on a nearby switch plate or outlet plate. Then it will work. Remember the purpose of the test is to simulate a ground fault....electricity leaking to ground....(through the tester....and in a real situation "you" would be the electrical tester.
Some examples would be you sticking your finger in the outlet and then touching a plumbing fixture hooked to a grounded water pipe...ground fault..
or
You drop you hair dryer in the tub full of water which has grounded fixtures....ground fault
Remember to be shocked you have to complete a path to ground from electricity. Ever wonder why birds can sit on a power wire??? they have no path to ground.
So yes "you do need a path to ground" for a GFCI to work...you just don't need a ground wire attached to the GFCI outlet itself.
Disclaimer: none of this is meant in any way to cause or suggest that people take on any electrical projects that they don't feel comfortable or experienced to try.
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