Feeding Fish for Optimal Nutrition?

[NaH2O]

I'm interested in finding out the best way to feed various fish for optimal nutrition. I've picked up a few things here and there from Steve's posts, but I thought it would be ideal to have them all in one thread.

I understand different types of fish eat different things, so I'd like to know the best way to balance foods out for everyone.

What are the best supplements, and how do you use them properly? I'm looking for advice on getting the best nutrition to my fishes.

Here's my current rotation: Alternate mysis, prime reef frozen, and arcti-pods. When I feed the mysis and prime reef, I alternate soaking in vita-chem, selcon, and garlic. I also alternate Sprung's purple and green sea veggies on the clip.

I learned about feeding broccoli, but my rabbitfish was not interested in it at all, so I'd also like to learn about getting the fish to eat it, and whether or not it is good to rotate broccoli with nori, or just feed broccoli alone.

Sorry for the broad questions. I hope steve-s and leebca can teach us all how to get the most nutrition to our livestock.

 

[The Apprentice]

Thanks for starting this Thread Nikki I want to tag along and learn more as well

 

[leebca]

I couldn't do justice to the response of the original post in less than 5 or so pages of text.

I posted long threads/articles on ReefCentral and Reefland.com. I no longer participate in RC, but if you will look at this posting in Reefland.com and let me know if you'd like that here, I will take care of the posting.

Go to Reefland.com and this link:
http://www.reefland.com/forum/marin...18767-feeding-marine-fish-fish-nutrition.html

 

[LakeEd]

I'd like to tag along with this thread as well. I prepair my own "mush"... and so far my various fish seem to enjoy it... but I would be interested in knowing if there is a better way to help their health.

by the way:
my "mush" is a combination of frozen raw Shrimp, Scallops, Squid (remove the ink, and plastic fin thangy), Nori, pre-rinsed & frozen broccli (added this just last month), Garlic and selcon. I mix all in a blender with RO/DI... then freeze in baggies flat, to be broken off nightly for feeding.

 

[NaH2O]

Lee - that is outstanding information. I'd love it if you could copy and paste it here.

 

[spongebob lover]

I'm tagging along for this one.
The only thing i feed to my fishes is Frozen Formula (red kind) and sometimes i dump a little bit of frozen cyclopeeze in there .
I'd really like to know if that's enough or should i may be give them a little vitamins even though the seem ok with the frozen formula .

 

[leebca]

I've posted the information in this Forum in two parts.

It had to be split into two parts because it is over the size restriction.

I was unable to attach the table I had prepared. The table is a .doc format that is not accepted on this system.

The two can be made into a sticky if you/anyone wants it to be. Enjoy!

 

[steve-s]

I would seriously give Lee's articles a good read.

I think it's important to note that hobbyists need to pay heed to the nutritional needs of the specific species they keep. I think that it's often missed and a key ingredient to longevity. Too often are general foods types used that do not address optimum choices for specific nutitional needs. Hobbyist rely too heavily on meaty foods, even for carnivores. Convenient or "price conscious" choices should be avoided or at the very least given serious thought before purchasing. Also avoid bulk foods or ones that have an old or stale/pale look to them. Avoid dried and freeze dried as much as possible. Look at the label and see how many items you can actually identify. With dried/shelf stable type products, I doubt many will be able to say they know what 50% really are. That's by no means an insult to anyone, I think we've all looked at foods we eat and wondered what the heck was in it.

If you find the prefab frozen foods too pricey, it's easy enough to make your own and gear it towards the majority of the fish types you keep. "Minority" species can be target fed to make up the diffrence. Foods can be easily fortified with the correct types of vitamins and HUFA's necessary for proper health. This is often much easier in a DIY mush recipe than always remembering after the fact when using prefab foods. Also ensure that the quantity made is not too large. Only enough to last a month or two so freshness is at it's peak.

Cheers
Steve

 

[bc_slc]

Did I miss the whole broccoli thing? Anyone have a link for me to educate myself?

Mat

 

[NaH2O]

Thanks Lee!

I'm going to dig into that information. If I have specific questions I'll post them here.

Here's a copy of the pdf file for the table Lee's referring to above: Tropical Marine Fish Feeding Table

Here are the links to the threads: Feeding Marine Fish and Fish Nutrition
Feeding Marine Fish and Fish Nutrition Part 2

 

[leebca]

BROCCOLI ?
Scourge of the Universe !

Broccoli flowers is the only land plant I would recommend for herbivore marine fishes.

The flowers (those green buds) are best prepared by blanching. Freezing doesn't break down the fiber enough for releasing the nutrients to the herbivore marine fishes.

 

[leebca]

Thanks Nikki. I'll be happy to answer any/all questions.

 

[spongebob lover]

Thank you very much for the links Nikki i'm gonna have to do some serious reading.
I keep only a six line, a clownfish and a damsel and i have never given the thought of vitamins, any good ideas on what vitamins would be good for these 3? .
I also have a question, I read that fishes will also love bananas, for humans well we know is the potasium (don't know how to spell) that is good for us but in fishes, would they benefit from it or not really?
Sorry it just came into my mind .

 

[leebca]

There are some suggestions in the sticky post.

There are many good choices for vitamins. What is preferred to use are vitamins gotten from actual sea sources. Selco, Vita-Chem, GVH, and Zoe are examples of such vitamins.

 

[NaH2O]

Great reading! I finally had a chance to sit and read the information and jot down some notes, rather than scan through it. I have a few questions, and I feel like a total newbie after reading the information. If any of my questions were covered in the material, just quote it or redirect me.

My first question has to do with soaking foods in a vitamin or fat. What is the proper way to do this, in order to ensure the food is getting the most out of the supplement? I know it seems like a dumb question, but I want to make sure I'm doing it properly instead of assuming I'm doing it right. Should I also be soaking my seaweeds in supplements?

Supplements should only be stored/kept for 2-3 months before replacing? I wanted to double check what I read.

For instance, protein in fish flesh is not eaten by tangs. And groupers can’t make use of the protein found in kelp.

OMG - I never even considered this. I guess I didn't put too much thought into it. I figured a protein is a protein no matter how the fish gets it. So much for my rabbitfish snatching mysis.

You don’t want a freshwater mysis shrimp species (like relicta).

Yikes! I do this. Why don't we want to feed the freshwater mysis? The brand I feed claims their product is high in protein (69.5%), and also has reasoning behind why you want to feed freshwater mysis.

Onto feeding a mixed fish species reef tank. I have a 6-line wrasse that will grab a couple of bites off the seaweed clip. In the reading, it says that some carnivores might sneak in some veggies and that its ok. But, do these couple of bites it takes of the seaweed mean it isn't getting all of its nutritional needs met? It doesn't eat more than 2 bites usually off the clip. Also, when feeding different fish species, how can you be sure the carnivores are getting their portions, and the herbivores aren't eating too much of meaty foods, while getting enough veggies, and omnivores are eating balanced, etc? I tried to feed one of my anthias once with a long piece of airline tubing and squirting in food with a syringe, but once the other fish realized food was coming out, everyone was there trying to get to the food.

I do alternate the types of seaweed I feed. I alternate green (Porphyra yezoensis) with purple (Porphyra umbilicalis), and I've tried the red (Palmaria palmata) but everyone turned their nose up to it. How do you entice your fish to try other things? I tried broccoli flowers but no one was interested, and the red seaweed was tried and spit out.

Can you go over the more common fish in each category...carnivore, omnivore and herbivore? I'm pretty sure I have a handle on what fish go in what category, but I want to make sure. For instance, would a Hepatus tang (Paracanthurus hepatus) be more of an omnivore? They eat zooplankton in the wild? But mine also actively eats seaweed on the clip.

*sigh* sorry for all the questions, or if they are redundant. I feel like I don't know anything about feeding fish. I guess it is because I never thought about what I was feeding. I thought this was a very good point, as well:

BUT a fat fish is not necessarily a healthy fish.

 

[leebca]

No problem with the questions. I find they were all good ones. It's hard to tell what people know or don't know, so if I wrote something that either doesn't make sense or it can't be envisioned, then I'm happy to elaborate.

My first question has to do with soaking foods in a vitamin or fat. What is the proper way to do this, in order to ensure the food is getting the most out of the supplement? Should I also be soaking my seaweeds in supplements?

The soaking process depends upon the chosen food. For instance, if you'll be soaking a flake food, or freeze-dried food, then such foods will take up the liquid. You want to apply enough supplement to wet the food. If the food is a frozen food (my preference) then the frozen food is washed (if it needs to be) and thoroughly drained. It is allowed to sit/soak in the supplement for no less than 25 minutes. Then drain the excess liquid away from the food and feed 'normally.'

You know those syringes, like in the Salifert Test Kits for titrating? They have those pointy tips on them for making fine drops. They make great 'injectors.' I buy so many kits that I keep the old syringe and tip for the next kit and keep an unused syringe and tip for injection purposes. Using a well rinsed new syringe and tip, I take in some liquid vitamin or fat supplement. If your fish eats live feeder fish or marine fishes like silversides, you inject the food fish with fats or vitamins (4 tiny drops per 1 inch of fish being fed) before putting it into the tank.

Soaking dried seaweed is not a bad thing, but it is very inefficient. The algae generally flaps around in the current while the fish nibble at it. Most of whatever is soaked up in the algae is pretty much lost into the tank water before it is consumed. Not bad, just not efficient. The fish won't be getting much through this route, unless your fish consume such algae in the first few minutes you offer it to them.

Supplements should only be stored/kept for 2-3 months before replacing?

Unfortunately by the time we buy the supplement, it's already several weeks or even months old. Once opened it should be refrigerated, but don't count on it being good for much longer than 2-3 months after it is opened.

Why don't we want to feed the freshwater mysis?

Well. . .Not to be a smartie :evil: but would you feed your cat, dog food because the can said it was high in protein? Or, let's try this question. . .Would you serve dog food to your family because it was high in protein?

There are very subtle long-term effects of feeding foods that are or may be natural but, artificial to the animal you feed. Ever heard of marine predator fishes having intestinal disorders or constipation from eating a constant supply of freshwater feeder fish? The feeder fish might have almost the right ingredients, but it's in the wrong form. The predator fish intestinal/digestive system can't handle the 'wrong form' for a long time without something going wrong with the fish. Right makes for right.

All protein is not the same. DNA is a large protein molecule that stores genetic information. For every different living thing on the planet, there is a different DNA protein molecule. Does this begin to give you the concept of how many different kinds of proteins there are likely to be in this world?

Saltwater mysis have the right composition which the marine fish are built to properly digest and handle. Saltwater mysis have the correct fats and vitamins that marine fish need. Lastly, if you think more about it, the saltwater mysis, coming from saltwater have the things in them that are found in seawater (trace elements) that are not always present in the right quantities in freshwater animals.

A short story. . .Back in the 1930's meat remnants were used for the aquaculture foods. In the 1950's the remnants 'disappeared' or became expensive when the USA went crazy for pets and they needed the remnants for dog and cat foods. What major piece of protein from the cow don't North Americans eat? If you guessed "the cow heart," you'd be right. Not only did the aquaculture industry step up and use it, some business people thought beef heart would be a great food for tropical (fresh and later salt) fishes.

The business was a 'go.' It cost 10 cents a pound to buy the heart from the slaughter houses! The final packaged beef heart product sold for about $10 per pound. Sound like a profitable business? The only missing link was to convince the aquarists that the best food you can feed your tropical fish was beef heart. Nowadays we call it marketing. Did they succeed?

It's the same all over again with the mysis. Freshwater mysis is harvested very inexpensively and can be grown inexpensively. The saltwater mysis (e.g. bahia) are cannibals, eating their own young and are very hard to cultivate. So, all the packers/suppliers have to do is convince the aquarists that their marine fish are really better off eating something the suppliers can easily find and cheap to produce, which marine fish can't properly digest, get the most nutrients from, nor get the proper nutrients from. Did they succeed?

In the reading, it says that some carnivores might sneak in some veggies and that its ok. But, do these couple of bites it takes of the seaweed mean it isn't getting all of its nutritional needs met?

Maybe. In the confines of our aquarium fish behavior is a tough thing to say 'normal' or not. For instance I'm sure you know that in the wild many Acanthurus tangs will school together, but how will two do in the aquarium? When it comes to a wrasse, even my Harlequin Tusk will nip at the algae from the clip when the herbivores are going hard at it. I don't think it needs the algae. I think it is upset that the food isn't meant for him! Fish can get pretty strange like that. In fact, I use that very 'attitude' sometimes to get finicky fish to start eating.

I have seen my Fairy Wrasse defend the algae just after I put it in, for up to 10 minutes. It doesn't eat it, it just keeps the herbivores away from it. The herbivores play a game of 'Get around the Wrasse' until the wrasse gives up. (The herbs have developed a routine which the Wrasse seems oblivious to --- one herb will dart in and while the wrasse chases the decoy the rest swim in for a bite. The Wrasse races back, then another herb acts like the decoy. (BTW it has been found in nature that many of the more passive tangs do this same thing around the more aggressive tangs during feeding time). The routine continues.) Obviously, the Wrasse knows it can't use the food, but. . .I'm not sure. . .can fish get jealous? :?:

Don't be too concerned about the 'cross-overs.' Some are related to abnormal behavior. If you stick with the 'program' and provide the proper nutrients, you'll find your fish behavior may well change in a few months (but it may take months for you to notice a change). Regular feedings of the proper foods with supplements and additives of elements to the water will eventually calm the fish.

I alternate green (Porphyra yezoensis) with purple (Porphyra umbilicalis), and I've tried the red (Palmaria palmata) but everyone turned their nose up to it. How do you entice your fish to try other things?

The various colored algae contain different nutrients. But to be honest, the reds and browns mostly benefit the angelfishes. If you hang an algae clip every day of the week, even if they don't eat it, make sure one day out of 4 is not a green algae.

I tried broccoli flowers but no one was interested, and the red seaweed was tried and spit out.

Did you blanch them?

Can you go over the more common fish in each category...carnivore, omnivore and herbivore? I'm pretty sure I have a handle on what fish go in what category, but I want to make sure. For instance, would a Hepatus tang (Paracanthurus hepatus) be more of an omnivore? They eat zooplankton in the wild? But mine also actively eats seaweed on the clip.

It's one of those questions that I can't completely answer, so I'd prefer not to! Almost any current marine fish reference book that lists marine fishes, mentions or says which one of the three groups they belong to. It would be best to follow such guides. You can even find that info on the Internet by searching for the fish you want to know more about.

Though named differently, the Paracanthurus hepatus is still a member of the Acanthuridae family and as such is listed as a herbivore. As young fish they eat a lot of plankton and keep near/within 10 meters of the surface. This makes sense since being young, they can't very well travel long distances to find the algae it takes to fill them up. Once older they join the long-distance swimmers browsing the reefs. They are herbivores that find 'shortcuts' in eating carnivore foods. As these tangs get older they should naturally prefer the algae.

Thanks for your kind words. I tend to be long-winded. Sorry for the long answers. But ask if you have any other questions or if I missed something you wanted me to elaborate upon.

 

[spongebob lover]

ohh boy i just finished reading the links .
Now i feel like horrible hehe.... in there you state that we're suppose to feed the fishes 3 times per day..... hehe i only feed mine once a day frozen formula 1 ( the red kind) and once a week cyclopeeze .
I'm gonna check out the vitamins you suggest in there.
Thank you for the info dood !!! i have finally learned that i have 2 omnivores and 1 carnivore .

 

[NaH2O]

Thanks for the information on soaking the foods. I now know I wasn't doing it long enough *sigh*.

Well. . .Not to be a smartie :evil: but would you feed your cat, dog food because the can said it was high in protein? Or, let's try this question. . .Would you serve dog food to your family because it was high in protein?

No....because I know felines have different amino acid requirements compared to canines . Don't worry about being a smartie . I felt a little dumb asking the question about freshwater mysis because I figured (after reading the thread) I was falling into a marketing plan. I'm somewhat intelligent (no comments from the peanut gallery!! lol), so I hate when I discover I'm blindly following along with hype.

There are very subtle long-term effects of feeding foods that are or may be natural but, artificial to the animal you feed. Ever heard of marine predator fishes having intestinal disorders or constipation from eating a constant supply of freshwater feeder fish? The feeder fish might have almost the right ingredients, but it's in the wrong form. The predator fish intestinal/digestive system can't handle the 'wrong form' for a long time without something going wrong with the fish. Right makes for right.

All protein is not the same. DNA is a large protein molecule that stores genetic information. For every different living thing on the planet, there is a different DNA protein molecule. Does this begin to give you the concept of how many different kinds of proteins there are likely to be in this world?

Saltwater mysis have the right composition which the marine fish are built to properly digest and handle. Saltwater mysis have the correct fats and vitamins that marine fish need. Lastly, if you think more about it, the saltwater mysis, coming from saltwater have the things in them that are found in seawater (trace elements) that are not always present in the right quantities in freshwater animals.

Great info. Thanks for going through the reasoning. It never occured to me that the freshwater mysis might not be doing my fish justice, or even to compare it to feeding freshwater feeders to marine predators.

Did you blanch them?

No. It was a broccoli flower that had been frozen. I'll try the blanching method next time.

Thanks for your kind words. I tend to be long-winded. Sorry for the long answers. But ask if you have any other questions or if I missed something you wanted me to elaborate upon.

I have a tendancy to be long winded, too....as you probably noted in my last post . I do have another question...

How do you determine how much to feed each fish, or is it more of a trial and error thing? Is there a way to judge based on fish size (i.e. this tang is 4", so it generally requires X oz of seaweed a day)? Yikes...maybe that is a really dumb question, but I want to make sure the fish get as much as they should, but I also want to make sure I don't pollute the tank with too much food.

I hope my questions help others, as well.

 

[leebca]

How do you determine how much to feed each fish, or is it more of a trial and error thing? Is there a way to judge based on fish size (i.e. this tang is 4", so it generally requires X oz of seaweed a day)?

This is a very important question. How many food packages say, "Feed for no more than 3 minutes?" How do they know my fish only needs to eat for 3 minutes?

The quantity of food is based on a few factors: the type of fish it is (a delicate Butterflyfish will usually not scarf up the same quantity of food that a wrasse does/can); the size (and age) of the fish; the type of food you are feeding; and the general condition of the fish.

I can't give a direct answer, but it is related to those factors and the amount varies as those factors vary. First I would say you have to watch for their excrement. Not a very nice topic, but. . .You have to be a super pooper snooper! Bottom line -- short version? -- if the food is coming out looking like it went in, you're feeding too much.

I'll take some examples of those factors I've mentioned.

I just finished feeding my fish tanks. I fed them this noon with my own food. It is a 'potent' food. Little waste. Very efficient. Most of the fish were done eating in about 1 minute. The Harlequin Tusk and the larger Regal Angel kept eating. The Tusk ate more because of its bulk (short fish, but bulky) and because, as a carnivore it tends to eat a greater quantity in large 'bites.' The Regal Angel is a 'slow eater.' But it is a larger fish. It kept eating at a slow steady pace for two more minutes after the other fish started showing little interest.

The fish that reached their fill early on were healthy and well nourished fishes. They could count on another meal before bedtime. Occasionally a fish will skip a meal. I say it's because it knows there will be another offering soon.

An anecdote: I was on a rare tour behind the scenes at the San Diego Zoo. A small group of us was in a 'safari' kind of truck with a cover. We brought food snacks for the animals with us. When the animals see the truck, they know it's snack time. There are three tours on that day. I was on the second tour. We had treats for the giraffes and in the first 'zone' they attacked us for the food. :lol: The next group were hanging out under the shade of a tall acacia tree. They saw the truck and didn't make a move towards us. They looked at us though. Everyone in the truck knew what was happening. The animals figured, why rush over. We can stay in the shade and wait for the next truck!

When your fish develop that confidence from your dependability, a lot of fish behavior changes towards the passive and and serene atmospheres. In essence, when they have what they need they will pretty much regulate their own intake of food and how much to feed is less of a concern for the aquarist.

I want to make sure the fish get as much as they should, but I also want to make sure I don't pollute the tank with too much food.

In general, you should be putting food into the tank at a rate that the fish are eating it up, with short pauses every 20 seconds or so. Make sure they eat what you put in, before putting in more. If the current is too strong, turn it off for a few minutes so that the food doesn't get blown all over. Your goal is just to put in what they will eat. You're not polluting your tank with excess food if you do the poop check and add food to the aquarium as noted above.

I hope my questions help others, as well.

I'm sure they did!

 

[Maxx]

Freshwater mysis is harvested very inexpensively and can be grown inexpensively. The saltwater mysis (e.g. bahia) are cannibals, eating their own young and are very hard to cultivate. So, all the packers/suppliers have to do is convince the aquarists that their marine fish are really better off eating something the suppliers can easily find and cheap to produce, which marine fish can't properly digest, get the most nutrients from, nor get the proper nutrients from.

Lee,
I've tried looking locally for saltwater mysis to feed my fish, but havent had the greatest luck. Who makes what you like to use?

Nick