Fish food question?

[leebca]

Land products contribute very little or nothing to the nutrition of the marine ornamental fish. Some products do put weight on the fish, but that isn't the same as being nutritious. Others create nitrogen wastes in the tank as they pass through, undigested, the intestinal tracks of the fish. But if the land products are far down the ingredients list (that is, they are one of the minor ingredients), I wouldn't worry about it.

The prepackaged foods that come to the US from Europe can't contain natural macro algae. There are restrictions to what marine lifeforms can be harvested/used in the fish food industry and macro algae aren't allowed. However the use of Spirulina and powdered kelp are very good for omnivores and herbivores. Because of this, they offer vegetable substitutes and then have to 'sell' the hobbyists that these are just as good as natural greens from the sea. Thus, rumors and myth-information are spread.

Gelled foods do provide the best chance to get the nutrition into the fish. This is explained in the fish food/nutrition post. Fish Health Through Proper Nutrition

For homemade foods, the subject has come up before: Home Made Fish Foods

 

[cpd7767]

use filtered water

 

[ac7av]

Filtered water for what?

 

[Shane and John]

looks like we have another one just trying to rack up posts...look at his random posts all over the boards this morning.

 

[ac7av]

That just sucks when people do that. I should have known but I saw that post on my phone so I didn’t pick up on the details. We should start keeping a list of people doing that and just maybe block them some how from the for sale area. I don’t know it that’s even possible but its getting irritating that so many people are doing that now. Just stupid! Reminds me of the guy last month that posted about 20 times “just tagging along” all in the same day.

 

[bigblue141]

Is kelp the same as sea weed?

Also, when I'm out boating in the sound there is a lot of algae that I see that looks like ulva lettuce.

Can you feed temperate algae to tropical fish? They are from the ocean, just different parts. If that would be okay, then all the Oak Harbor residents could have free algae!

 

[leebca]

"Sea weed" is a very generic term, like 'bug' would be for insects. Kelp can be considered a kind of sea weed, but not all sea weeds would be good for marine fish consumption.

Although temperate macro algae is not generally what marine tropical fishes eat, I think the similarity to their native algae would be good enough. I would clean some off and give it a try and see if the fish will eat it. However, even if they do, try not to make this their whole diet -- maybe up to 50% of the macro algae you offer may be of this source. I still very much favor feeding fish their natural foods as much as possible.

Lastly, be sure not to remove anything from the water that is regulated, restricted or prohibited. There are many peculiar regulations, codes, and laws regarding such things.

 

[ac7av]

What land based items should I stay away from and what land based products just are more fillers and don’t really do any harm in feeding to the fish? The reason I ask is that it seem every brand of food that I have been able to get an ingredient list for all contain some land based products. I like the thought of using the manufactures products because I have a good idea of what’s in it and its to the quantities of say proteins and vitamins that the fish need. I’m uncertain about making my own foods because I really don’t have a good understanding of what’s required to get the levels of protein, minerals and so on to make a well balanced food. I see a lot of people just throw it all in and mix it up but that just seems very un specific on the amounts of what compared to the level of “fill in the blank” required. Heck you even say to be ware of getting dried nori or seaweed from the grocery store because it may have colors or preservatives or something added to it that you would not want to give your fish. How do I know? The stuff I have been giving them from Ocean Nutrition says its natural dried seaweeds (macro algae) enhanced with natural garlic extract. Protein 33.9%, fat 1.4%, fiber 5.2%, moisture 6.8%. This doesn’t all ad up to 100% so what’s the rest of it if its 100% natural dried seaweeds? Please don’t take offence to my lack of knowledge in the area but I’ve read threw you posts and stickies about fish food and what to look for but I am so way more confused now then I ever was about it. Maybe it’s because I’m starting to figure out a few things and it hasn’t all fell into place yet. Lee, am I making it just more complicated then it is or should I keep researching it?

Thank you
Erik

 

[leebca]

I would much rather you do pay such close attention to your fish's diet/nutrition than to just pass it off without caring. So don't worry about this.

The problem with 'which land products to avoid' is that not all land products have been thoroughly investigated regarding their effects/harm/importance to a captive ornamental marine fish.

We know that wheat products are in fact useless. They can't be digested. We know that land lettuce and other greens from the land have the wrong kind of fats in them. You see, marine algae have a certain kind of fat in them that the fish needs. The 'fats' found in land foods have a spec to zero of the good fat and the rest is of no value to the fish and those foods (with regards to fat) are of no use. Whether these do harm or not, we don't know. We just know they are of no use as a fuel/fat source. There is one exception. We have found that feeding animal fats to fish to cause a fat deposit in the fish. Like feeding freshwater fish to Lionfish. This food will eventually kill the Lionfish.

For instance we used to feed our marine herbivores (the Tangs) with Romaine Lettuce. This lettuce has a tiny/fraction of the fat these fishes needs and the balance of the fat is useless. But we didn't know this 25 years ago! We didn't have macro algae we could obtain to properly feed them. So our Tangs slowly wasted away in captivity, being fed Romaine.

With this, hopefully a bit more understanding, you can read labels and go by them. The macro algae by name-brand packagers should be fine. No problems there. Don't worry about the percentages adding up properly. As noted above, when they list 'fat' the real question is 'What kind of fat are they measuring.' However, since the product is marine algae, we can use it. No more worries. Regarding the addition of garlic, that's a joke on the hobbyist. With so many people swearing by the use of garlic, the hobbyist thinks adding it a good thing. Here, it is useless. Still, the fundamental product is good.

Regarding frozen, pre-packaged marine foods, even those with vitamins, a vitamin and fat supplement will need to be added by you. So whether it comes with it or not is not important.

If the frozen foods contains wheat, the that type of protein is added to the total protein content, even thought that part of the protein doesn't 'feed the fish.'

Regarding other land veggie products, look to where they are on the ingredients list. For the most part, packagers of frozen foods list the ingredients from the ingredient of the most amount to the ingredient of the least amount. There is no rule, however, for them to do this.

If you find land products low or far down the ingredients list, then usually this is not to worry about. So what do you know now? Greens from the land are useless, but not harmful. Wheat and other protein land products add to the protein %, can't be digested by marine fish, and just pollution to the tanks, but doesn't harm the fish.

Regarding animal products being added to fish food -- like above, pretty much useless. Note the exception I gave early on -- land animal fats can do harm to our marine fish). Hobbyists used to buy beef heart for their tropical fish (freshwater and marine). This is a joke! :evil: In the West (North America) people don't eat beef hearts but eat other cow parts. There was an abundance of hearts. Some people got the idea to sell it to hobbyists. They bought beef hearts for a few pennies a pound, and sold it for a couple of dollars per pound. Now they just needed to convince the fish hobbyists this was a great food. Good advertising, rumors, and anecdotal info from hobbyists and you've created a market and made some people really wealthy. But. . .the food has little value to no value to marine fishes.

Regarding making your own food, what is important is that not so much what goes in, but that the whole organism goes in. You can use shrimp tail meat, squid meat, etc. as a base, then add whole marine products (eggs/roe, clams, krill, kelp, macro algae, spirulina, etc.) to make the food complete. Then the addition of vitamin and fat supplements make it work. But even with this home made food, I use it only once a day and make the other feedings with other whole foods.

From the above you have a feel for where land vegetables and animals fit into the marine fish diet. But this doesn't mean you can't use any product with these ingredients. You should just favor those with the least of these or none of these in them.

As you read ingredients, you should find more and more, that some prepackaged frozen foods are a better than others, with regards to what they put into the food. No need to be fanatical about the ingredients -- just be an informed purchaser. How far you take your 'demands' is up to you.

Hope the above helps.

 

[csababubbles]

Lee thanks for the great info!

On a side note, I went to a large state aquarium and they were in the process of feeding all the fish with huge pieces of romaine! My wife cracked me up cause we both looked at each other at the same time and she blurted out said Lee would be so disappointed! Isn't she wonderful!

 

[leebca]

That is disappointing. You'd think they knew better.

When I visited 'behind the scenes' at the Tampa Aquarium they pulled out their diet menu. The guide also pulled out from their freezer the foods they feed, to show me. I took photos (I've since lost) and took notes like crazy. The guide had to force me to follow along. I was trying to copy their menu. They had all sorts of whole marine foods on their list. I was positively impressed with their nutrition layout.

 

[ac7av]

Oh that’s so funny. In a sad kind of way.

Lee I’ve read threw lots of your posts over the last couple of years and I have to ask, I don’t see you ever mention any specific items that you like to use as in vitamin or mineral supplements and food brands or specific thing to look at. At least anytime I’m looking for that kind of answer I never see you mention anything specific. Any reason you don’t every give advice to get something specific. I just was wondering because I am one of those people that just can’t make a decision on something I want to get if I don’t know every thing about it I should know to make the best choice.

 

[leebca]

Well. . .

I'm not trying to appear to be something I'm not, but there is a fairly large group that do accept and take my advise. I try very hard to remain unbiased with regards to products. There are some products (like some antibiotics, and meds) for which there are no others or are easier to acquire than others. Those I recommend.

But I don't recommend equipment nor food products. I don't earn, make money, or in any way financially benefit from this hobby. I even give lectures to hobbyist groups at my expense, without compensation. No one pays me.

Regarding vitamin and fat supplements, I listed those I have found useful in my post (which maybe you missed or really didn't read? ): Fish Health Through Proper Nutrition. If someone insists upon suggestions, I re-list that list.

Prepackaged foods are tricky. There are no laws governing what the makers/packagers can say about their food. Even if they totally lie about their product, they will go 'unpunished.' There is no government nor even any consumer agency protecting pet fishes! And then there are those that say, then what if they get sued? Who will sue them? What they have they really got to lose? The larger ones, we can assume to be more responsible, but even they are sometimes flawed.

You know those food makers that claim their product is 'bio-clean' and free of harmless bacteria? More than 70% of their packages were found to contain Vibrio sp (and other harmful) bacteria -- one of the worst for marine fishes. :evil: Why don't our fish contract infections like this then? Some do and we 'wonder' where it came from. Others don't from luck, good environment, good nourishment, etc. I only use this as an example of the truth vs. advertising.

I know of no prepackaged, frozen, public available 'perfect' food. If I knew it, I'd recommend it.

The only 'perfect' food is the one I make myself (not for giveaway, free, or sold) and I never make it the same twice. Under these circumstances, there is nothing I can recommend at the moment, however I can explain to others what they need to look for.

I both understand and sympathize with your frustration. (I'm frustrated too!) The best I can do, with my knowledge and sense of ethics is leave it to each hobbyists to choose the lesser bad of the bad products out there. :shock:

 

[ac7av]

I understand. I have read threw that area and skimmed threw it at least a couple other times. I will go threw it again but it will take me few days and try to absorb more of the information. I will admit reading is not always my strong area but I try to plow threw most everything that is of interest to what I’m looking for. I do appreciate your information and value your opinion. Since I’m a fish guy not a coral guy you’re the one I look to most for information and help for all kinds of things. I didn’t really write about it much in my tank thread but I do give some credit to your for the successful healing of my prized 3 line damsel fish that developed a case of pop eye. He made a full recovery and I believe he still has at least most if not all of his site back in his eye. I was afraid that the female would not have anything to do with him after he got injured but since he was so healthy before he got injured his recovery was less then 2 weeks for the swelling to go down and another 3 to 4 weeks the eye really clear up. Those two are back at nesting every week again. I thought the sight may have been gone for good as bad is it looked at first but its cleared up so well now that from watching his actions I believe at least he has adequate vision in that eye now. I’m sure that a fish that was not as healthy would not have made such a complete recovery. I have never had a fish come back from something that looked so bad and live let alone make a full recovery as long as I’ve kept fish (30 years). I can only contribute it to actually being healthy and not just looking health and I believe that has a lot to do with what I’ve read on this site and your fish area has been the area I read the most about. I have a lot to learn and try to as much as I can. Thank you Lee for all the time you invest in what you do for us on the site.

 

[rjbourge360]

Fish Food

The approach I take to preparing food for my fish and coral is that:

1) I buy all ingredients (brine shrimp, krill, plankton, shredded saltwater fish & shrimp, nori,...)
2) keep these different ingredients in their own bulk containers
3) create my own mix DAILY depending the revolving needs of the fish and coral

By having something different each day in different proportions, the fish seem to respond better to the feed

It also allows me to keep a routine of certain foods for different fish and coral as well as control waste produced.