Fungal Infections
- Thread starter NaH2O
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Fungal infections fall into two groups: true and untrue. 
In veterinarian terms, the untrue are the atypical molds. Atypical molds have no known or proven cures.:evil: They are also known as UM (ulcerative mycosis).
There are many organisms that appear to behave like fungi. There are actually only a few true fungal infections that marine fish are susceptible to. There are a limited number of UM type molds that present as fungal. Only a microscopic examination and, if necessary, culturing can sort it all out. Usually a microscope exam of a scraping is all that is needed. The molds only require about a 40X magnification and have differentiating visual characteristics.
Without trying to be condescending, at this level of the hobby, it is best to treat the fish as if it could have either or both pathogens. Many meds on the market fight off 'true' fungal infections. But how many hobbyists can determine the difference? I can't just from photos or questions. Even though I can see the difference in my microscope I don't take the risk. This is one of two types of conditions I don't treat -- I put the fish down and sterilize everything it touched.
I received a fish from an online source and it came in with such a presentation. I didn't let it out of its shipping bag.
(It may seem. . .but I haven't forgotten your questions. )
True fungal infections are internal. You are probably familiar with the land fungus which produces mushrooms. The mushroom you know is the reproductive organ of the fungus. The fungus (mycelium) is thread-like and lives in the (usually rotting) organic material. The organism is the thread-like vegetative life form. In true marine fungal infections, something similar is going on. The fungal 'roots' are inside the fish, drawing nourishment. They are more commonly referred to as hyphae. These are the parts of the mold/fungus that are identified under magnification (see above).
What is seen on the outside are the 'reaching' hyphae. They're 'reaching' for more nourishment. OR they are there to start the zoospore production (reproduction -- like the mushroom part of land fungus).
Your question is sort of 'mixed.' The fungus is inside the fish. But the real question is, "Is there such a thing as systemic fungal infections?" In marine fish, none have been properly identified. I suspect the answer may be, "Maybe" but none have presented in the wild nor in captivity. I think from the above you may gleam that there would be no means of producing the spores without external access.
Fungal infections spread in the infected fish as an inverse to how weak the fish is physiologically. The weaker the faster. They are relatively slow. They are unstoppable and that is the heart-breaker. Hoping you can save the fish that is going to slowly die by being eaten by a plant-like organism. Something out of a sci-fi thriller. All things being equal (whatever that statement means ) it usually takes about 1 day per 10g of fish. Just to be gruesome -- the more food, the longer it takes to kill the fish.
Hope this answers your questions.
In veterinarian terms, the untrue are the atypical molds. Atypical molds have no known or proven cures.:evil: They are also known as UM (ulcerative mycosis).There are many organisms that appear to behave like fungi. There are actually only a few true fungal infections that marine fish are susceptible to. There are a limited number of UM type molds that present as fungal. Only a microscopic examination and, if necessary, culturing can sort it all out. Usually a microscope exam of a scraping is all that is needed. The molds only require about a 40X magnification and have differentiating visual characteristics.
Without trying to be condescending, at this level of the hobby, it is best to treat the fish as if it could have either or both pathogens. Many meds on the market fight off 'true' fungal infections. But how many hobbyists can determine the difference? I can't just from photos or questions. Even though I can see the difference in my microscope I don't take the risk. This is one of two types of conditions I don't treat -- I put the fish down and sterilize everything it touched.
I received a fish from an online source and it came in with such a presentation. I didn't let it out of its shipping bag.
(It may seem. . .but I haven't forgotten your questions.
)True fungal infections are internal. You are probably familiar with the land fungus which produces mushrooms. The mushroom you know is the reproductive organ of the fungus. The fungus (mycelium) is thread-like and lives in the (usually rotting) organic material. The organism is the thread-like vegetative life form. In true marine fungal infections, something similar is going on. The fungal 'roots' are inside the fish, drawing nourishment. They are more commonly referred to as hyphae. These are the parts of the mold/fungus that are identified under magnification (see above).
What is seen on the outside are the 'reaching' hyphae. They're 'reaching' for more nourishment. OR they are there to start the zoospore production (reproduction -- like the mushroom part of land fungus).
Your question is sort of 'mixed.' The fungus is inside the fish. But the real question is, "Is there such a thing as systemic fungal infections?" In marine fish, none have been properly identified. I suspect the answer may be, "Maybe" but none have presented in the wild nor in captivity. I think from the above you may gleam that there would be no means of producing the spores without external access.
Fungal infections spread in the infected fish as an inverse to how weak the fish is physiologically. The weaker the faster. They are relatively slow. They are unstoppable and that is the heart-breaker. Hoping you can save the fish that is going to slowly die by being eaten by a plant-like organism. Something out of a sci-fi thriller.
All things being equal (whatever that statement means ) it usually takes about 1 day per 10g of fish. Just to be gruesome -- the more food, the longer it takes to kill the fish.Hope this answers your questions.
NaH2O
Well-known member
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- Jan 25, 2004
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Lee, it most certainly does answer my questions, and your descriptions make a lot of sense.
I can only imagine in a fish aquaculture facility, what this would mean to the stock. Since it is opportunistic infection (yet in large numbers can overtake healthy fish), what kind of disinfection should you do to your quarantine system once the infected animal is removed?
I can only imagine in a fish aquaculture facility, what this would mean to the stock
. Since it is opportunistic infection (yet in large numbers can overtake healthy fish), what kind of disinfection should you do to your quarantine system once the infected animal is removed?In cleaning up after a bout with a fungal infection, you need to think in terms of, 'What kills molds?'
I throw away anything I can easily and inexpensively replace, including equipment I can't disassemble, tubing, hoses, nets, intakes, etc. The rest are sterilized with straight bleach followed by rinses until bleach is gone. I wash then with straight vinegar and rinse, then rinse a couple of times at the end with RO/DI or distilled water. Let the piece totally go bone dry.
Spores are everywhere (unfortunately). But the above procedure removes any excess of fungal spores and hyphae, returning the equipment to 'normal.'
Fish aquaculturists, when they find a mold, have a 'sudden' special deal on their fishes. The chemicals that have been known to retard or even cure true fungal infections cannot be used on food fishes in general. The few that can be used on food fishes, must not be used a month+ in advance of harvesting. The aquaculturist have to make a tough choice!
Fortunately today this isn't as big a disaster as it was a few decades ago. Aquaculturists have come around to understanding that their best effort is to provide the proper nutrition to their fishes and to buy fry that are more robust through genetic engineering. They have more or less learned the old adage -- pay now or pay later.
I throw away anything I can easily and inexpensively replace, including equipment I can't disassemble, tubing, hoses, nets, intakes, etc. The rest are sterilized with straight bleach followed by rinses until bleach is gone. I wash then with straight vinegar and rinse, then rinse a couple of times at the end with RO/DI or distilled water. Let the piece totally go bone dry.
Spores are everywhere (unfortunately). But the above procedure removes any excess of fungal spores and hyphae, returning the equipment to 'normal.'
Fish aquaculturists, when they find a mold, have a 'sudden' special deal on their fishes. The chemicals that have been known to retard or even cure true fungal infections cannot be used on food fishes in general. The few that can be used on food fishes, must not be used a month+ in advance of harvesting. The aquaculturist have to make a tough choice!
Fortunately today this isn't as big a disaster as it was a few decades ago. Aquaculturists have come around to understanding that their best effort is to provide the proper nutrition to their fishes and to buy fry that are more robust through genetic engineering. They have more or less learned the old adage -- pay now or pay later.
LakeEd
Achilles
Lee,
How common is it, to find that one of our animals has a type of mold infection? Until the other thread started by Azgard1, I didn't realize this was something to be aware of.
Thanks,
How common is it, to find that one of our animals has a type of mold infection? Until the other thread started by Azgard1, I didn't realize this was something to be aware of.
Thanks,
These infections really aren't that common in marine fishes. They are more common in freshwater fishes. There are more molds that live in freshwater than in saltwater.
Since the one I saw come to me in a bag some months ago, I haven't seen any fish I have acquired with this condition.
I have not noticed any fish with this condition in any LFS I have visited.
I have seen a fish or two with this condition in the tanks of wholesalers maybe once a year.
For a fish in captivity to have gotten to the point where it is susceptible to a fungal infection, it has to have had some terrible trauma(s), injury, and usually sub-standard nutrition. Usually a fish that has been ignored with a serious injury or a serious bacterial infection can get this condition. Any major stressor can lead to this also, like a severe space stressor or water quality issue.
I hope it is rare because if it isn't then the care level of the fish was not very good to begin with.
Since the one I saw come to me in a bag some months ago, I haven't seen any fish I have acquired with this condition.
I have not noticed any fish with this condition in any LFS I have visited.
I have seen a fish or two with this condition in the tanks of wholesalers maybe once a year.
For a fish in captivity to have gotten to the point where it is susceptible to a fungal infection, it has to have had some terrible trauma(s), injury, and usually sub-standard nutrition. Usually a fish that has been ignored with a serious injury or a serious bacterial infection can get this condition. Any major stressor can lead to this also, like a severe space stressor or water quality issue.
I hope it is rare because if it isn't then the care level of the fish was not very good to begin with.
Damsel13
Well-known member
Very interesting reading. Thank you.
It seems like azgard1 has had success in defeating true fungi by using the topical gel, Bio-Bandage. I'm happy to recommend this in the future.
Traditional treatments for true fungal infections have been:
Nifurpirinol [a.k.a. Furanace] (which can be combined with Neomycin (a gram negative antibiotic)).
Although Methylene Blue has been included in many medications and advertised as killing fungi, it is in fact more of a preventative measure than cure, and then shown only successful at preventing some bacterial and fungi infections in freshwater applications. It carried over from freshwater use to marine use early on when there were few marine fish treatment medications. If used in a marine system, it will kill the nitrifying bacteria (i.e., it will stop the biological filter).
I use Methylene Blue in my freshwater dip process because it is a weak nitrite detox chemical, has a calming effect on marine fishes, is an external protozoacide, provides added oxygen (an oxygen donor that passes through the skin of the fish), and finally because it does give bacteria a 'hard time' as a weak bacteriacide. Fresh Water Fish Dip
It's interesting. When Dr. Edward Noga gets to this topic in his lecture, it is usually about 2 minutes before the bell or break and he simply says, 'Not much can be done.'
My theory is straight-forward (but a guess more than a theory maybe). I think of medication as a means to give the fish an opportunity to perform its own cure. If this has truth, then the veterinarian community cannot usually defeat a fungal infection in marine fishes because the fish has gone too far into the negative energy reserve to make a come back from the infection. Sort of circular. If the fish has weakened defenses to the point of getting the fungal infection, then it is too weak to recover even with chemical help.
Traditional treatments for true fungal infections have been:
Nifurpirinol [a.k.a. Furanace] (which can be combined with Neomycin (a gram negative antibiotic)).
Although Methylene Blue has been included in many medications and advertised as killing fungi, it is in fact more of a preventative measure than cure, and then shown only successful at preventing some bacterial and fungi infections in freshwater applications. It carried over from freshwater use to marine use early on when there were few marine fish treatment medications. If used in a marine system, it will kill the nitrifying bacteria (i.e., it will stop the biological filter).
I use Methylene Blue in my freshwater dip process because it is a weak nitrite detox chemical, has a calming effect on marine fishes, is an external protozoacide, provides added oxygen (an oxygen donor that passes through the skin of the fish), and finally because it does give bacteria a 'hard time' as a weak bacteriacide. Fresh Water Fish Dip
It's interesting. When Dr. Edward Noga gets to this topic in his lecture, it is usually about 2 minutes before the bell or break and he simply says, 'Not much can be done.'
My theory is straight-forward (but a guess more than a theory maybe). I think of medication as a means to give the fish an opportunity to perform its own cure. If this has truth, then the veterinarian community cannot usually defeat a fungal infection in marine fishes because the fish has gone too far into the negative energy reserve to make a come back from the infection. Sort of circular. If the fish has weakened defenses to the point of getting the fungal infection, then it is too weak to recover even with chemical help.
In cleaning up after a bout with a fungal infection, you need to think in terms of, 'What kills molds?'I
How about salt ... suspect thats the reason that fungal diseases are very rare in Marine fish.
Thanks ... I can't remember when I saw a bonafide fungal issue in a SW tank ... they must be rare and thats good news .. one less thing to worry about.
Edit: Do you know any websites that may have a decent picture of a marine fish with a fungal problem .. might be nice to bookmark for future reference.
Edit: Do you know any websites that may have a decent picture of a marine fish with a fungal problem .. might be nice to bookmark for future reference.
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Drs. Foster & Smith have a picture of a fish with it.
It is one disease that, once advanced, needs no photo. What is coming out of an area (e.g., wound) of the fish looks like tufts of cotton as can be seen in this post: Fish Fungus Infection
It is one disease that, once advanced, needs no photo.
What is coming out of an area (e.g., wound) of the fish looks like tufts of cotton as can be seen in this post: Fish Fungus Infection
