Fungus??

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BTTRFLYGRL

Well-known member
Joined
Jan 15, 2006
Messages
185
Location
IN
Hi again....seems I only pop in when I have issues;)
I have a Potters Angel. I have had him for about a month. He is in a 20 gallon qt. He was very healthy at time of purchase..I observed him for 2 weeks and made sure he was eating before I brought him home.. I know this is not the hardiest of Angels but this guy was alert ,curious , a great looking fish all around

Well, the day I picked him up is the day I believe his troubles started.
The employee used one net to catch him. :mad: I even grabbed him another net but he didn't think it neccesary. Anyway, after chasing the poor thing for 5 minutes, he finally PINNED HIM TO THE GLASS WITH THE NET BY HIS MOUTH!! Needless to say, I was not happy, but I took him anyway.
He was great when I brought him home..great appetite..very alert. After 3 weeks this changed:cry: He was not as eager to eat and not the intergetic swimmer he was..he would hover on the bottom and he no longer got excited when I came in the room. His fins started to appear a little frayed so I started doing daily 40% water changes [was doing them every other day] This did not help..I treated him with Furan-2..The morning of his second dose I was getting ready to do my daily water change and was shocked to see my poor angel's mouth:cry: It looked as if it had exploded!! There was white kind of 'hairy' stuff protruding from his mouth..the area around his mouth appears to be cracked..the day before his mouth was fine.. Anyway, I stopped the Furan-2, did a large water change and did a lot of reading. I realize that fungal infections are rare but everything I read points me to that condition. I had some Kanacyn..Kanamycin sulfate..and purchased some Maroxy..then I read some more..I was not sure which to use, but decided on the Kanacyn just in case this turned out to be bacterial...I gave him his second dose this morning, he doesn't appear any better..The poor thing cannot eat because of this white clump of stuff in his mouth:cry:

I am very concerned about him and was wanting advise please..I had thought about mixing the Kanamycin and Maroxy but I cannot find any info about mixing these two meds

So Steve, Terry, any advise?
 
Last edited:
Hi Kim! Tagging along on this one to learn....
 
Wow, haven't seen one of those in years. Miss mine, went carpet surfing about 6 years ago. :rolleyes:

You where actually fine with the Furan 2. It will treat both gram negative (common in marine aquaria) to gram possitive (you don't know how rare) bacteria.
What dosage where you using initially/what was the game plan?

If you followed the manufacturers recommendation it would most likely be too week and ineffective. Standard cap size is 60 mg nitrofurazone which is your main concern. To be effective for this type of issue, you need about 7.5 mg/gal dosed daily for 4-5 days with a 25% water change prior to each new dosage.

More commonly though, this will be bacterial in nature, not fungal. Believe it or not, bacterial infections look pretty much the same as fungal. The only real way to tell the difference is in a lab. Given your description of the capture technique, I would definately say there is an injury which has lead to a bacterial infection. Since you have it, the kanacyn would be the best approach here, I wouldn't bother with the Maroxy at all. I would also suggest lowering the salinity to hypo conditions as it will make the med more effective and help reduce stress/expended energy in the fish while it recovers.

Is the dosage (cap size) the 150 mg and what doeas the package reccomend/what is the QT size? I would also check the manufacture date on the package.

Also be wary of the possibility for Lymphocystis. It can set in from lack of proper diet and/or water quality issues/stress.

Cheers
Steve
 
Hi Steve!! Thanks soooooo much for replying!!

Lets see..Kanacyn tablets are 150 mg..I checked the expiration date before I started, I got them a year ago when I heard Kanacyn and Spectrogram would no longer be available..6/2006..2 capsules per 10 gallons [thats double dose for marine] Treat everyother day for five days..I have been doing daily 50% water changes and adding 2 capsules to the new water..He was previously in a 55 but I did not have enough medicine to treat a tank that size so I moved him to a 20. I have the sg at 1.015 right now . I have been adding Vitachem to the water..I have tried feeding him Cycloopeeze, its small. The poor guy wants to eat:cry: But can't. When I first saw him like this, I thought about trying to remove some of this growth with tweezers...I even had him in my hand but let him go..I don't trust myself. I was afraid of making this injury worse

So, is this dose okay? I gave him his second full dose yesterday. His 3rd and last dose is due tomorrow..Any suggestions on where to go from there?

Thanks again!!
 
My guess is you haven't seen much improvement/halt in the problem? The proper dosage should be 1/4 teaspoon per 20 gal of water volume. As a capsule, your looking at about 6. Added daily with a 25%+ water change prior to each dose. Treat for 3 days and if no improvement, discontinue.

What have you noticed since adding the med two days ago?

Cheers
Steve
 
I haven't noticed much improvement. He is due another dose this morning so I will add 6 instead of 4....yikes, I hope I have enough:eek:
Thanks!

I'll keep you posted!
 
Is there any chance you can post a decent pic of the affected area? I would like to try ruling out the possibility of Lympho. It won't be conclusive by any means but may help. Be sure you do a water change before the next dose as it will improve the effectiveness of the med. I would also drop the salinity some more at that time, closer to 14 ppt (1.011).

How long has it been since the angel was able to eat?


Cheers
Steve
 
I tried getting a photo but they are way to dark..I don't think its Lymph because its fuzzy..He hasn't eaten in a week:cry: I am surprised every morning I check on him that he is still alive. This is so depressing. I haven't lost a fish in awhile.. I have become pretty good at treating ich on my new fish and the secondary infections that accompany them, but I have never seen anything like this. I feel helpless.. I don't want to lose this little guy! I place cyclopeeze in his tank everyday, its small so I am hoping he's getting some down. The owner of the store where I got him suggested it was lymph [I did not tell him about the netting incident] He offered to remove the growth. Will this help or hurt? Do you make house calls;) J/K
I gave him 6 capsules about 2 hours ago so we'll see what happens

Thanks, Kim
 
Just checked my supplies..I only have 7 capsules left. I cleaned the store of Kanacyn and spectogram. I have to travel 1/2 hour to get any decent meds. Any suggestions on a replacement?..I remember seeing Trisulfa, not sure how it compares. I do have some Furan-2 left, but not much..I just gave him some cycloopeeze..It appears he may have gotton some down. He is moving his mouth as if to try to get this growth out..poor guy:cry:
 
Steve

Nice post as usual but I have a problem with the dosage of Kanamycin which is an avg of 300 mg /gal, so x 20 = 6,000 mg / 20 gal vs your 900 / 20 gal with a 50 % water change rather than 25 %. All from Noga but Herwig gives the amounts you gave. Actual values in Noga are 190-380 mg / gal for prolonged immersion. Bassleer give 150 mg /gal. Almost all aminoglycosides have this dosage in these high values, rather than the low 50 mg / gal you gave. Any reason ?

I also think it is a bacteria infection although it could fungus, which is rare in SW. There is a dye test one can due to determine if it is fungus/bacteria or lympho.
 
Boomer,

True, I was being a little consevative but my understanding of this kind of med is although it can be used at much higher dosages, a 300 mg/gal range should be reserved for short (1-2 hr) baths. Ideally 100 mg/gal to a max of 135 mg/gal for prolonged exposure (3-7 days) due to this type of meds ability to interefere with normal immune function over the long term... My concern was with the lack of foods/reduced immune function, the cure might do more harm at those levels.

What dye test?

Kim,

How many caps of the Furan do you have left?

As far as removing the growth, if a bacterial infection, it will not help. It may do much more harm than good so I would reserve it as a last resort.

Cheers
Steve
 
I may have around 20 furan capsules left...I do also have Bifuran, its in powder form

I found a product called Kanaplex, by Seachem online also

If I have to order something, is there anything you would recomend that would work better?
 
If you see no improvement by tomorrow, I would switch back to the Furan2 since you already have it. If it does improve by tomorrow, add your remaining Kanacyn instead. The Bifuran is basically the same as the Furan except a bit more Nitrofurazone and no Methylene blue. The Furan 2 being more likely to help if a true fungus.

If the Furan is used, I would dose at a rate of 2 1/2 caps Furan 2 each day with a good sized water change (25%+) prior to each new dose. Do this for about 4-5 days. You have to be careful with this one as it can be harmful to the fish and the med does not break down as easily as most. Different than I posted above but I think this will be more effective and I think your biofilter is probabaley non existant by now. If the angel begins to eat at all, predissolve the med before adding to the tank in a small glass and add a few tablespoons to the food and soak for a few hours. This meds works much better when injested (as do most). Dump the remainder in the tank.

I would also continue to add a theraputic dose of Vitachem after each water change. You can also use a basic (human) B12 vitamin. It will aid in keeping up the fish's feeding response. Keep the lights off if you have overhead tank light and the room as dim as possible except when checking progress.

How are the water quality numbers?

BTTRFLYGRL said:
If I have to order something, is there anything you would recomend that would work better?
For serious issues, Gentamycin sulfate would be a good option. For less severe or "common" ailments, Maracyn II (which could also be combined with Maroxy) is a good option.

Cheers
Steve
 
I forgot to add, if you do need to switch meds, be very sure to do a large (50%) water change and run carbon (or polyfilter) to remove the old med first. You do not want to mix kanamycin with other meds for the most part.

Cheers
Steve
 
Hey Steve
Off topic just a bit, How or where can I get some of the reference, you use in determining medicine dosages and reccomened uses for them. I have noticed you are like the resident fish doctor. I try to read all your posts and learn from them, I would just like to learn more if I can. Thanks.
The other Steve
 
Most of what I know has been the hard way unfortunately. A lot of reading, research and doing.

The main "read" that was recommended to me was ....
Handbook of Drugs and Chemicals used in the Treatment of Fish Diseases: A Manual of Fish Pharmacology and Materia Medica by Nelson Herwig

I have yet to get it though, it's not cheap (avg $175.00 US) and I have not yet found a used copy for sale in Canada.

There are also some good recommendations in this thread...
http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=8256

Cheers
Steve
 
Thank you very much. Thats more than I am willing to spend for a book right now. I will look on ebay. If I find it I will send you a email for dibs, if you want it. If not I will bid on it. Thank you again. I will just keep reading your posts and try to soak it up.
 
I found one that was reccomened as a starting point on that thread. The manual of fish health by Andrews and two other names I forget. Thats one that fits into the pocket money figure. Is that a fair one to start with in the under 30$ dollar range or is there a better one that you know of?
 
Couldn't tell you I have never read it so I do not know the depth (or lack of) to verify the content. You can try PMing Terry and see what he has to say.

Cheers
Steve
 

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