Growing concerns...

[AquaKnight]

Well, my Naso went through QT ok, and 2 weeks into my 2nd round of fish in QT, a Blueface Angel and Hawaiian Blue Spotted Puffer, all so far have been great and have had zero problems. The thing is this seems like it's going to a little "too smoothly" if you get my drift. I'm almost looking for things to began a treatment. (Haven't treated (hypo/copper) any of the fish yet). When I bought the angel, he had a slightly nicked spine on his dorsal fin, which has healed up perfect. The puffer on like day 2 sort of freaked out and what appeared to scratch himself on a dead clam shell I have in there, but he knocked it across the tank so I don't think he was really scratching. Decided to wait for confirmed Ich spots, but has been good since, haven't noticed him repeat it and clear fins and no spots. Wonder if it a pod or something that freaked him out? I just doubt want to spend 4 weeks of QT for each fish, only to loose them again. I don't like 'preventive treatment' but I will grant that it does stop you from worrying a lot lol.

FWIW, these fish were next to each other at the LFS (I know we talked about this), but I think it may have been a great idea because the puffer showed the angel the ropes of how to eat. The angel is eating great now and takes in about anything you toss in there, mysis, clam on the half shell, flakes, pellets, and lots and lots of angel formula cubes. Want to get a live tree sponge for him, but just too $$ even for the dieing ones the LFS doesn't want to discount. I have about 30lbs of LR in the 55gal and they both hanging out in the same cave.


Oh, one more side concern, does the Hawaiian's beek grow like a dogface's and needs to constantly be grind down?

 

[leebca]

The Hawaiian Blue Spotted Puffer (Canthigaster jactator to the best of my knowledge should not have 'beak' problems. I have not kept this particular fish, however it is best known for its 'plates' rather than having a beak.

Like many of the Puffers, however, it should be offered food 'challenges' which exercise their mouths.

 

[AquaKnight]

Thanks Lee. Yea, he works anything I feed him, never seen a fish 'chew' everything, even mysis. He loves silversides so if I feed a decent size chunk, he'll take a good 3 minutes just to eat the one piece. The angel is doing great too, he's eating mysis out of my hand now. Can't wait another week for QT to end.

Lee, another side question, what would be the 'healthiest/best' part of the silverside to feed? Not necessarily the puffer, but like an anemone or fish that would eat a silverside whole? The head, or the bit right behind the gills/head where all the organs and stuff are, or the main body part where a fillet would be?

 

[Damsel13]

I had that same question about silversides... I was wondering if the head is the best?

 

[leebca]

I have mixed opinions about Silversides. Some are misrepresented and are not from the sea. Other people I know of my experience denounce their use. However, I have yet to understand or hear why they are down on them.

In general, the Silverside has too much flesh, so removing the back half part of it would be a better balance for the fish. Switch to anchovies if you can.

 

[AquaKnight]

Very interesting Lee, silversides seem to be the 'backbone' of the hobby. If you don't mind, just curious as to why the 'fleshy' parts are bad? I'm thinking along the lines of a nice fillet is the best cut of meat. Is the composition just too oily or something?

 

[leebca]

Most our captive marine fishes get too much protein. My suggestion was to shift the protein content of the Silversides by removing some of it (the tail) and providing a less-flesh food.

"Bad" may be too strong of a word.

As originally mentioned, I'm not sure why some of my peers have a hesitancy towards Silversides. I've searched for previous posts in other Forums where I've read this, but have not gotten any results. I will try a direct communication and let you know if I get anything.

 

[Damsel13]

Following along........

 

[AquaKnight]

Interesting Bob. Will be checking for any updates.

About the anchovies, where you find usually find them? Are they frozen? I take it the ones dripping in oil in the roll back can from the supermarket aren't any good? :razz:

 

[leebca]

You should be able to find them in Asian markets. Packaged in bags, they are whole, with head, tail, etc. They are packaged dry without additives. They are each about .75 to 1.5 inches long.

A fine addition to homemade foods, but after soaking in saltwater, can be fed to large predatory fishes. For smaller fishes, just break it up first before soaking.

 

[AquaKnight]

Alright cause for actual concern today. I swear I thought I saw him scratch again today (the first time was about a day after intro he flipped out and struck a died clam shell). It was bright and early this morning. He is quite active then and is 'hunting' the rock all morning. There's about 25lbs of LR that was copper treated in there. Anyway he was hunting and then quickly did a flick towards the rocks. It very easily could be taken as a 'scratch' the only thing stopping me, is that sometimes scouring the rocks he gets dirt/crap on his belly from the bottom of the barebottom QT tank. He was on the bottom when the did that and looked like he wanted to get his lower side/belly area. Could he have just gotten some junk on his belly and wanted to clean it off? He's been perfect the entire 4 weeks so far and no Ich or anything, I check 3 times daily. I would also think the Blueface angel he is in with would come down with symptoms first?

 

[greenmonkey51]

I think of fish scratching like this. You cough when your sick, well every now and then do you cough even when your not sick. I've seen fish scratch themselves many times and they look perfectly healthy.

 

[leebca]

Flashing (scratching) in of itself is not a concern. It is how often they flash, that is important.

You'll need to sit in front of the tank for a while until the fish think you're not there! Then when they are relaxed, count the flashes per 10 minutes. A healthy fish may flash once every half hour to hour. An irritated fish will flash every few (less than 10) minutes. A fish infected in the gills could flash every 45 seconds or less.

From the above you look for what is causing the irritation, or in the latter much more frequent flashing, you look for a parasite, disease, ailment.

 

[AquaKnight]

That could very well be true. I've seen Ich infected fish scratch, and it's a very repetitive thing, scratching multiple times with in a minute or two. Not like a once daily thing (I think I noticed him do it again this morning, but just like before, he was low in the tank and was more of a freak out lunge then a deliberate scratch to get an itch).

 

[AquaKnight]

Well Lee I usually can only get 30 mins in the morning before work and it's only once each morning in the last two days.

When I'm off work, I've never noticed him do it, watching for more then an hour. The 55 is in my bedroom is I just sink into my bed and they totally forget about me. That said, I did do a round of water tests and nitrates is higher, around 40-50. Having my brother come over and do 2 5gal water changes. Amm, nitrites, phosp. all 0 though.

 

[AquaKnight]

Did an hour of observation this morning. Zero flashes from either the angel or puffer. The puffer is still doing this move Lee, I wondered if you had any input (I know you haven't had this fish but maybe it's something general?

Anyway, the puffer paces the glass, almost in a way like a tang would in too small of tank. He rubs his nose glass down, then does a half circle back up and does this repeatedly. I have two theories, first, his too big for a small tank. He's the biggest Toby I've seen at 3 1/2" and his in a 55gal. Though lots of people keep Tobies down to a 29gal. Second, and perhaps more likely is some stress from the angel? I noticed this morning that as he was doing his dance, he ventured over to the angel got into the angel's face and the angel give his a nip on the tail. The puffer darted off a but made this face like "ouch!". It was so sad/cute lol. Any opinions on that?

The only other thing is they both are still pretty skittish. I can approach the tank, but if anyone does, or I don't have food in my hand or approach too quick, they both dart for cover. Is it just these guys nature? My tang I just QTed would do the opposite and come up to you. The angel does take food from my hand though. So there is some ground being gained.

 

[leebca]

Think along with me. . .

Let’s say I have a display tank that has a volume of X. One fish takes up X/2 of the space. It makes that space its territory or area. Maybe doesn’t defend it all the time, but perceives that ‘space’ as its own. Is the space of the tank X for the remaining fish(es) or is it X/2?

I think you get where I’m heading. If the Angel is declaring its area of the tank, then the tank has ‘virtual’ less space in it for the Puffer. That is, your Puffer is space stressed.

Did those other people have that same Angel with that same attitude in with their Puffer in the 29?

Hobbyists tend to look at the display space as the entire available space to each individual fish. But that isn’t the best perspective. Yet, that ‘excuse’ is used time and again to overstock a tank. The 'overstocker' quotes Internet/Online vendor recommendations for space. Maybe a vendor recommends a 50 gallon display for a particular fish, but does that mean that the tank can hold 2 more fishes that are also recommended for a 50?

I hope others reading this get the point. Can I see light bulbs going on around the world? I’m sure you understand.

Regarding the skiddish part. They are ‘feeding off each others’ fears.’ Not unusual. The Angel is probably the instigator. It runs for cover (a wise choice for most marine fishes) when in doubt about what is happening. The Angels as a general statement about the group, seem to do this with greater frequency even when established and acclimated. The Puffer senses the tension and fear and follows suit in its own behavior. I would predict that if the Puffer is separated from the ‘bad example’ fish, it would quickly get over this behavior and start acting more like a ‘dog’ with you.

 

[AquaKnight]

Thanks again Lee. Good call on the "follow the leader" with the skittish bit. I had the tang in with a chromis that never was spooked (and the chromis ate from the nori sheet too with was awesome).

I definitely see what your saying about the territory and tank size. I don't think the angel's aggression was over territory, just a "get out of my face" thing. They share the same cave and even take turns during feeding. Perhaps I am applying human emotion to it.

 

[leebca]

Not necessarily (applying human emotion). You should be the best observer and evaluator on your particular fish's behavior.

Ultimately though the Puffer is acting like it is space stressed.

I've had over the years many Powder Blue Tangs in 180+ aquariums. For the first time I now have one that is acting like it is space stressed, even though it is in a ‘long enough’ aquarium. I think there is a factor to space stress that is related to the temperament of the fish, too. That is, what should be sufficient space, isn’t in the case of an individual fish.