Heater/Electrical Problems

[Paul B]

Scooty, I still stand by my answer. I read the article and i agree with it. He states
"Now lets say that I connected an electrical generator to the motor through an insulated mechanical coupling. When the motor is turned on, it turns the generator which in turn creates a voltage. I will then connect one side of the generator to ground and the other side to my aquarium water. What will happen? Current will flow through the aquarium and out the ground probe. Will the GFI detect this and trip? No, because even through its current results from the motor-driven generator's energy, the motor's lines remain balanced."

This makes no sense to us as hobbiests. I can see no reason why we would run a powerhead through a generator. If we did, this would be true as I have done it myself many times for certain reasons in ponds. We do not use generators in our tanks. The other thing about a ground probe making a path for induced currents is true. I have had fish in my system live for 18 years so if the induced voltage hurt them, it did not hurt them much. A ground probe is needed with a GFCI and it will Help to protect you even if you do not use a GFCI.

He is just trying to show something with an experiment but it is a very wierd experiment. He says that if you take a hot wire from an insulated generator and put it into the water with a ground probe the GFCI will not trip, that is correct because the GFCI is insulated from the generator and the current will have no effect on it. But if you take a hot wire from the power company which is any hot source in your house and touch it to the water which is grounded, it will trip the GFCI. Even if a GFCI is not used the breaker will trip but only if the water is grounded.
Have fun and don't try this at home.
Paul

 

[Scooterman]

Paul I don't think you understand what is going on here but this isn't the place to be discussing this.

Fuses and circuit breakers are too slow to protect one from shock . They protect equipment, not people. The GFI is electronic and faster (GFI = 10 ms). A grounding probe has to be used as a GFI reference before it will work properly.

In conclusion, the addition of a “grounding probes” will guarantee an electrical current flow in your aquarium and may induce erratic behavior or disease in your fish. If you have defective aquarium appliances that are creating a current path in your aquarium by using the salt water as a conductive medium, then the solution is to repair the appliances or replace them... not divert a portion of the current into a “grounding probe”.

 

[burning2nd]

yo its on like donkie kong, im gonna ground.

will groundin in the sump work as well. (i dont see why not)

 

[Paul B]

Scooter my man but I do understand very well and I do agree with the article but not in the way you think. He is talking about static or induced currents, not "real" current from an electrical source. I don't know the person who wrote that article but I have ben installing ground probes since Nixon was president and GFCIs since they invented the things. Anyway. You are correct this is not the place to discuss this.
And Scooter, I still love you. Don't get electricuted :lol:
Paul

 

[tomz]

Paul is correct.

The example given with the generator is questionable at best. The only way the GFCI wouldn’t trip (or function at all in his scenario) is if the neutral side of the generator was connected to ground on the output side of the GFCI. A GFCI compares the current going out to the current coming in and when they don’t match it trips. This configuration would only be wired up by someone with little or no understanding of electricity.

The following quote appears to be in reference to a system without a GFCI where a hot wire shorted to water will return through ground.
Quote:
In conclusion, the addition of a “grounding probes” will guarantee an electrical current flow in your aquarium and may induce erratic behavior or disease in your fish. If you have defective aquarium appliances that are creating a current path in your aquarium by using the salt water as a conductive medium, then the solution is to repair the appliances or replace them... not divert a portion of the current into a “grounding probe”.

Use of a GFCI is highly recommended but is virtually useless without a ground connection in the water. The risk of induced voltages flowing to ground in your tank is far more acceptable than electrocution

 

[Paul B]

Tom is it me, or is that scenario with the generator kind of useless in this discussion?

 

[DonW]

Thanks Scotter!!

After talking with Deb from DIY I am going to skip the aqua medic and go with the ranco.

Thanks
Brian

The ranco and the biotherm heateing element is a good pair. Mine have worked great for the last few years.

Don

 

[Scooterman]

Scooter my man but I do understand very well and I do agree with the article but not in the way you think. He is talking about static or induced currents, not "real" current from an electrical source. I don't know the person who wrote that article but I have ben installing ground probes since Nixon was president and GFCIs since they invented the things. Anyway. You are correct this is not the place to discuss this.
And Scooter, I still love you. Don't get electricuted :lol:
Paul

Paul think about this, you ground your sump, you get a device that allows the hot to make contact with the sump water, your ground just created current flow, your hand was in the sump at his time, you will probably get a fatal shock before your breaker trips, WITHOUT the GFCI that is. I dare you to try it, Paul, I don't question your years of experience & acknowledging a problem before it ever occur but most people don't have that experience. So you tend to know if you see a problem even way back then but that proves only that you are aware & you never had a problem or you prevented it ahead of time.
tomz z I didn't argue anything but the fact you should use a GFCI with a Ground probe that is it. Now I don't need to post my resume to make the point I know this is true.
P.S. read this one, I guess I posted the wrong one.

http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM/Aquarium/GroundingProbes.html

 

[tomz]

Tom is it me, or is that scenario with the generator kind of useless in this discussion?

Yes it’s pretty much useless or worse as it’s very vague and misleading.

Paul think about this, you ground your sump, you get a device that allows the hot to make contact with the sump water, your ground just created current flow, your hand was in the sump at his time, you will probably get a fatal shock before your breaker trips, WITHOUT the GFCI that is. I dare you to try it, http://avdil.gtri.gatech.edu/RCM/RCM/Aquarium/GroundingProbes.html

I agree that adding a ground probe will not in most cases reduce your risk of shock without a GFCI. The probe would have to be real close to the short to trip a breaker. However I believe that the risk of shock to a person is not really greater with the addition of a one. If the hot wire is in contact with the water there needs to be a path through you to ground which would have to be there with or without the probe. Now if you held the probe in one hand and put the other in the water...

 

[burning2nd]

holly hell.

i dont have a gfci, should i or shouldnt i ground probe

 

[Scooterman]

Don't panic Burning, you can get them cheap at a home center, the kind you plug into the outlet or you can get a GFCI outlet, they don't cost that much, unless you need help installing the outlet, get help if your not sure..

 

[tomz]

Use of a GFCI is highly recommended but is virtually useless without a ground connection in the water.

Ok I didn't mean to say useless, obviously a GFCI will still function without a separate ground probe in the tank if something else provides a path to ground. If you are that path you will receive the shock, until it trips; which should be in the milliseconds.

In my opinion using a ground probe (if you don’t have a GFCI) is still a good idea to help protect a person as electricity will always follow the path of least resistance and a direct path to ground is less resistive than through a person and then to ground. Keep in mind though that you still could get a shock but it would likely be less than if you didn't have a ground probe. In my opinion the closer your hand is to the ground probe the less of a shock you’ll get (assuming they’re both in the water).

To one of Scooter’s points, if a voltage is applied a ground probe will provide a path to ground which will allow current to flow through your water and subsequently through your fish, and your hand if it’s in the water

Your safest bet is to do as suggested in the document Scooter referenced and not have any voltage go into your tank by using all external equipment. Next best and almost as good is to use only low voltage devices (i.e. Tunze).

If you do use submerged devices that run on high voltage then make sure the power cord has a ground connection as most of them will have a bare ground wire inside the casing so if there is a breach in the casing the ground will be there to short and trip the breaker. I know, lots of the inexpensive devices are only two conductor with no ground wire:-(

Either way you want to use a GFCI as you never know when you might accidentally knock a light or something in the water or have a spill on external equipment.

Tom

 

[Paul B]

OK sinse Tom wrote this, I don't have to.
Quote
"In my opinion using a ground probe (if you don’t have a GFCI) is still a good idea to help protect a person as electricity will always follow the path of least resistance and a direct path to ground is less resistive than through a person and then to ground. Keep in mind though that you still could get a shock but it would likely be less than if you didn't have a ground probe. In my opinion the closer your hand is to the ground probe the less of a shock you’ll get (assuming they’re both in the water).

Scooter most of those articles you posted is about induced electricity and how it may effect fish. That is a controversal subject and it may or may not. But most of the time if there is a hot wire touching the water like a cracked heater, the circuit breaker will trip before you put your hand in the water. Even if your hand was in the water, as Tom said, the currect would take the least resistive path through the ground. If for example you are drawing 10 amps on a 15 amp circuit, and a heater cracks, the breaker only needs five more amps to trip which a broken heater would easily draw. You would be safe.
I have gotten severe shocks from my tank in the past, almost breaking the glass once. That was before I put in a ground. It is a tricky subject because even in an ungrounded tank if you throw a hot wire in there and you put your hand in there you would not get shocked, unless you grounded yourself by touching a grounded appliance or a pipe.
As an electrician I work on live bus bars all the time, you can safely touch them if you are not grounded to anything. But now we are not allowed to do that so we have to shut off the power and put a ground across the bus bars in case the power comes on.
Anyway I am going to throw an extention cord in my tank now and stick my head in to wake me up.
Have a great safe day.
Paul

 

[burning2nd]

i have several Gfci laying around the house. but look at were it is to install (behind the tank) im not a fan of working over my sump with no power for a little at the tank, sounds like a bad idea to me.

i got a extention cord from depot that is/has a GFI built in 2 it. every time the power goes out and then comes back on it doesnt turn back on.

and its only pluged in to half of my stuff (less inportent) cause i want it to turn back on in the event of a power failure

but, a grounded probe would only make it so that if there was a + introduced in to the water it would go for the - witch would be the probe, and not your hand?

 

[Scooterman]

Plain & simple without the GFCI Just a GP it will create the least path to ground but at the same time will allow maximum amps to flow, it would be less chance you weren't grounded & had no GP that if your got a shock, you wouldn't be faced with that high amperage, It only takes .001 amps to stop the heart. Paul I worked on over 100kv transit lines, power stations, & industrial generation for about 20 years now, since you keep introducing your resume LOL I'll throw in a small bone of my experience. Regardless The best situation is the GFCI & GP enough said!

 

[Krish]

Hey Brian...Just checking to see if you did that water change yet in your sump and if the tank is still doing ok?


In reation to the "electrical" discussion going on here as well, some good info is being shared. We all need to practice safety when dealing with our tanks, but I guess like Scooter said, this is not the place for this discussion I guess for certain reasons, but I do know about this

Previously posted by Scooterman

Now I don't need to post my resume to make the point I know this is true.

 

[Krish]

Plain & simple without the GFCI Just a GP it will create the least path to ground but at the same time will allow maximum amps to flow, it would be less chance you weren't grounded & had no GP that if your got a shock, you wouldn't be faced with that high amperage, It only takes .001 amps to stop the heart. Paul I worked on over 100kv transit lines, power stations, & industrial generation for about 20 years now, since you keep introducing your resume LOL I'll throw in a small bone of my experience. Regardless The best situation is the GFCI & GP enough said!

LOL...I guess we were posting the same time

 

[Scooterman]

Funny thing now I'm an office designer junki LOL
Yep agreed this thread served the purpose long ago.

 

[Paul B]

Anyway, those Home Depot GFCI's on the extention cords are designed not to come back on when the power comes on. We use them on the job and it is annoying.
Have a great day.
Paul
And it is good to know we are still friends

 

[mungus]

Hey guys don't worry about the discussion in this tread. It was very informative with lots of good information and I definately learned a few things along the way.

Mungus You will like that Rancho controller!

The ranco and the biotherm heateing element is a good pair. Mine have worked great for the last few years.

Yeah thats what I ordered Deb said that would be the best combination. If Dons using it its got to be good!!

Hey Brian...Just checking to see if you did that water change yet in your sump and if the tank is still doing ok?

Krish it is almost done. Everything is up and running but I have my return pump dialed back a bit because I just couldn't make enough water this weekend. 70+ gallons is alot to replace. I didn't want to let the RO/DI go while I was sleeping so that put me back a little bit. I figure I am about 5 gallons short so I am really close. So far everything looks ok. Some of my moniti's lost a little color but I am sure they will color right back up. The glass got completely covered in diatoms again so it looks kinda nasty but I am sure they sucked up a bunch of the excess nutrients.

Brian