Help: Ich? Should I quarantine & treat? Questions re: quarantine...

[Playapixie]

Hi all,

A few nights ago when my lights dimmed to all-blue for dusk, I noticed fine white spots on one of my two juvenile Ocellaris Clowns. They were really only visible under blue lights. The fish have been acting perfectly normal and they have been in my tank about a week and a half. She is not breathing rapidly, "flashing", itching/rubbing, or anything else that would make me think she's sick. However, 3 days later and the white spots are still there and are visible under the regular day lights now, too. It's like she's been shaken with salt, but it's *really* fine grains. I especially notice them on her fins, although when the light hits her certain ways I can see them on her body too (mostly along the upper parts of her body.) The other clown has not developed spots.

I've been reading everything about Marine Ich and managing it (yes, I've read the stickies), and I get that in order to really eradicate it I need to quarantine both fish for 6-8 weeks and treat with hypo-salinity or copper if this is ich. I bought everything I need in order to do so and I am prepared to do so if I must. I really don't want to worry next time I introduce a fish that I'm brining them into a sick home.

However...
1) I'm not totally sure it's ich or that she's sick at all. Should I assume that any salt-shaker white spots are disease and quarantine based on that even if they aren't acting sick? Or is it better to leave the well-acting fish in the more stable tank and see what happens?
2) I've had a sponge & some bio-balls from the potential quarantine tank in my Solana sump for 2 days, but I'm sure that's not enough to provide really any bio filter, right?
3) I know I can manage wastes with frequent water changes; however, I work 24 hour shifts once a week, which means that I will be unable to attend to their tank for daily water changes at least once a week while they are in there. I don't think I can ask my house-mates to do this.
4) Would treating the ammonia/nitrite with AmQuel be adequate on the days I can't do a water change? Because I do think I could ask my housemates to dose that while I'm gone.

Any suggestions would be appreciated! I'm leaning towards moving them into quarantine tonight. But the idea of having them in a tank with no bio filter established freaks me out.

FYI, my parameters on my Solana:
temp 77.5
pH 8.2
Specific Gravity 1.023
Ammonia: 0
Nitrite: 0
Nitrate: 3
Alkalinity: 4 meq/L
Ca: 420

Yes it's a pretty new tank; however, all of the rock and half the sand came from a friend's long-established tank when she down-sized, and the rock wasn't out of the water more than 30 minutes while I aqua-scaped (it was transported under water.) I didn't test the 1st three days but my Ammonia and Nitrite have always been 0, and I've always had a small amount of nitrate, ever since I started testing. The water is clear, the CUC is happy, and so are the few small coral frags that are in there.

The friend who most of my stuff came from hasn't had an ich problem.

Advice? Should I get them in quarantine tonight?

Thanks!
Dawn

 

[leebca]

Dawn,

I have your answers, suggestions, and some observations:

1. Your fish are ill. If the spots are the size of salt from a 'usual' salt shaker, assume Marine Ich and proceed to treat. There are plenty of photos on the Internet of fish with this parasite to compare to yours.

2. Right. Still, it's a start. Go ahead and use them.

3. I see no question here. If you're looking for, 'that's okay' you won't get it from me. Sorry. While recovering, the struggling fish need the best care they can get. You can go the extra length of adding a chemical filter to help manage toxins between water changes. That 'filter' must not interfere with the treatment process. Also, don't feed just prior to your long shift -- but perform a large water change just before the long shift.

4. Not a good choice. Additions of chemicals to the water is not in the best interest of the fish. Additives don't just 'go away.' However, a chemical filter can remove ammonia and/or nitrites without adding to the water.

Move them to quarantine, do a diagnosis, and if MI begin the process by starting with this stickie: http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/f15/curing-fish-marine-ich-50933/

The alkalinity and Calcium are not balanced and the Magnesium test kit results are missing. These three go together. There is a LOT of missing info about your system, not to mention the most basic of all -- the size of your tank.

Good luck!

 

[Playapixie]

Thanks, Lee. I more or less came to this conclusion already and have been setting up the hospital tank since I posted this.

I would be more convinced this was ich if the spots were "the size of a grain of salt from a usual shaker", but they are smaller. They are quite hard to see unless you are really looking for them. They show up better under the blue LED's than the white or white/blue. After all the reading and pictures I've seen though, this is still my most likely diagnosis, though.

Unfortunately there's no way around the 24 hour shifts and there is really no one I can expect to do this for me. I can, however, do big changes the night prior and the morning after, and hope that's enough. If it's not, is AmQuel absolutely a terrible idea? I got one of of those little hang-in-tank constant reading of Ammonia tags, and I do think my housemates could dose this if they see it go out of the "safe" zone. I think this is the best I can do. Either that or risk ammonia/nitrite for those 24 hours and water change as soon as I get home.

Are there chemical filter mediums that won't interfere with copper? I was leaning towards treating with copper because I read that hyposalinity makes it very hard to control pH, and that would be yet another factor that I couldn't monitor closely and control on those 24 hour work shifts. Copper seems more workable given my limitations. I bought Mardel "Copersafe" (chelated copper sulfate.) It says in the directions that you can leave in the activated charcoal IF it's already been in your system for 6 days, which it has not (I haven't been running any chemical filtration in my main tank.) The Coppersafe directions don't mention any other filter mediums that will help with ammonia/nitrite/nitrate or whether or not they would decrease effectiveness.

Would you mind please explaining what you mean by alkalinity of 4 meq/L and Ca of 420 being unbalanced? Most of my understanding of this so far came from this article: Chemistry And The Aquarium: Solving Calcium And Alkalinity Problems — Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine According to that, alkalinity of 2.5-4 meq/L (7-10 DKH) and Ca of 380-450 are the target ranges, and mine are right there. I haven't tested mag yet but I can get a kit tomorrow.

Other things I can tell you about the system:
34 gallon Salona
32 LBS of rock from a 4-year established tank with minimal transport/set-up time (less than an hour total and less than 30 minutes out of water)
20lbs sand, half from the same established tank (friend downsized); never out of water
Set up 3 1/2 weeks ago

Ammonia has always been zero since I started testing on day 3
Nitrite has always been zero since day 3
I thought the pH was 1.025 based on my hydrometer, but I just got a refractometer yesterday and of course it was way off, 1.022 yesterday and closer to 1.023 today (topping off evap slowly with 1.025 water)
nitrate has always been 3-5
alk and Ca have always been not far from the current values
ph was 8.4 the day I set up and has been 8.2 ever since
temp has always been 7-78

Had a minor diatom bloom around week 2 which resolved within 2 days. Have had minor green algae on rocks and glass ever since, which the snails are attending to well. Water is clear. Correline is spreading onto the rocks that didn't already have it.

Filter: skimmer (pulls appropriately gunky stuff since shortly after adding the two fish), filter floss, cheato w/fuge light on reverse cycle starting a week ago, a bit of LR rubble in the bottom media basket. No chemical filter.

Flow: Vortech MP10 on Eco-smart tidal swell mode at 50%. Return pump is Maxi-jet 900 (upgrade from stock.)

Live stock: 2 juvenile ocellaris clowns, 10 snails (astraea, nerite, nassarius), 5 blue-leg hermits.
5 very small coral frags (2 small mushroom, kenya tree, finger leather, xenia, few polyps zoas) mostly from the same friend's tank, all doing well

Anyhow, I wish I'd gone the route of a quarantine tank from the get-go instead of taking the advice of the LFS ("why would you want to stress out new fish further by putting them into less than excellent water?") and you can be sure I will be doing so from now on.

I wish I could stay home every day and take 100% ideal care of my little orange & white charges. However, reality says that if I don't go to work I won't be able to support them, so I have to deal with my once-weekly work problem. I know you can't say "fine", but I appreciate your suggestions to mitigate this, given this limitation. I will do the best that I can, and I take my responsibility to my pets seriously.

I really appreciate your help!

Thanks again,
Dawn

 

[Playapixie]

Just read more deeply into the Copper article and will look for Cupramine in the morning. All I could find the other day was Coppersafe, but there are a couple more fish stores in town I can try in the morning...

 

[Playapixie]

I also found the answer to using chemical mediums with copper (specifically cupramine) in the Seachem help forum. They said that they recommend taking out all chemical mediums including Seachem Purigen during treatment with cupramine. However, it sounds like Purigen can be used, although they don't recommend it..."It's not that Purigen will directly remove Cupramine; it's just a general rule to remove it to be "on the safe side," as you said. When we medicate with Cupramine, we do not use Purigen. Keep in mind that Purigen will not directly remove ammonia/nitrite/nitrate, but it will remove the nitrogenous organic waste before it can be converted into those components (i.e., therefore, it will prevent those levels from increasing). What we recommend doing in quarantine situations in order to keep the ammonia/nitrite/nitrate levels in check is to perform regular water changes (as needed) and to boost your biological filter by using Matrix and adding Stability (as necessary)." ~From their Tech Support person in the SeaChem help forum.

 

[leebca]

Dawn,

You've been very diligent and thorough in providing information and asking pertinent questions. I will try to either point you to what to read, or answer directly your concerns. However, I will be 'interrupted' for 1.5 and 'edit' my response after that interruption by adding more. So, let's begin:

1. There is a chance then that you are dealing with Marine Velvet. Much like Marine Ich, but the spots are more like 'powdered sugar' than granular. However, the choice of using Cupramine will take care of either one and is, under the circumstances of not knowing the parasite and your long shifts, the best treatment choice.

2. Yes. AmQuel is terrible, but not per se. I have used Algone during copper treatments before. The thing is you can use the chemical filters and media BUT you must continually monitor the copper concentration to keep it in zone. So try Algone or chemical filters that remove ammonia and actually see what effect it has or hasn't on your copper concentration. [NOTE: Algone is not a direct remover of ammonia, but does facilitate organic control and removal of nitrates and in effect can help establish a biological filter a bit faster.] For the treatment, use Cupramine and a sensitive, easy to read test kit, like the Salifert Copper Test kit. The best items to use are the hard filters (rather than media). But check what effect they have before just walking away from it. You may be fine just doing the water changes, despite being absent now and then.

3. Always willing to explain. Ask anything, although you'll find if I've written it in detail somewhere, I'll refer you to that since I got all the details in one spot and I might not remember a point or two. So you don't be put off by me doing this. I try to use the correct words. I didn't mean to imply the Calcium and Alkalinity were not in range. They are not in BALANCE however. The two things are different. Regarding balance, get the proper balance info and the corrective action to take from the middle of this post: What is Water Quality.

4. You're going to find that trying to control things in a 34 gallon aquarium can be challenging. That is, it's a bit small. But if that's what you can afford or can handle, then go with it. Just so you know. . . You've already discovered the difference between the hydrometer and refractometer. How are you measuring the pH? The worst way to test water is using dip sticks and a hanging detector. The latter is not very good for saltwater. If you rely on it, the fish will not live long or may suddenly die. Invest in the best test kits and equipment.

5. The link above will provide guidance on sizing equipment. Not just good enough to have it, it must be the right size and doing the right job. I would recommend that when you can, read the beginner's post for additional details and basic equipment: Starting up a Marine Aquarium. You DO need a chemical filter as well as the other things mentioned in that guide.

6. Generally speaking, get rid of the hermit crabs. It is controversial, but if you really care for the fish, get rid of the crabs. They sometimes get beligerent and as they get older they seem to think the tank belongs to them, sometimes attacking sleeping fish or anything they can get their claws on (other inverts, too). Not always guaranteed to act like this, but not worth the risk in my opinion. You'll find a variety of opinions on this.

Good for now!

 

[Playapixie]

Thanks again, Lee. I'll check out those posts.

Meanwhile, both clowns are now safely acclimated to their hospital tank and have received the first dose of Cupramine.

But boy, catching one of them (ironically and unfortunately the one with the spots) was EPIC! I eventually had to remove everything that wasn't part of the main rock work and drain 2/3 of the tank in order to corner her. That, of course, totally reinforced the "don't let a sick fish in your DT" concept, because I don't ever want to do that again.

I am suspicious of marine velvet, as the spots do seem more powder-sugary than salt-sized (but they are discrete dots.) Also, the clown's lips/mouth seem pale compared to the rest of her, and the other clown does not look like that. I also think she was acting strange this morning before the catching fiasco, and am even more convinced she's sick. Hyper-concern, or real? Who knows. But I definitely feel it's prudent to treat them and let my DT have time to be rid of any pests so I don't have to worry, either way. Have learned the quarantine less well!!

They are both acting fine in the hospital tank now, though, and don't seem any worse for the wear.

I'm measuring pH, alkalinity, nitrite and nitrate with SeaChem Marine Basic. Calcium and ammonia are API (although I have the SeaChem Ammonia Alert constant-readng tag in the hospital, which their website says works with Cupramine, while most ammonia tests do not). I picked up the Salifert copper, and Elos Mag today (will check the parameters on the DT later today when the dust settles.) No dipsticks.

I did find more info from SeaChem saying not to use any reducing agent with Cupramine (the thread was specific to Amquel) because they will turn the copper in the Cupramine toxic. So that goes back to the store.

For now I'm going to hold off on the Purigen and see if I can control things with just water changes. I realized that there were a couple other filter sponges in the Solana that have been there since the beginning, so those are now tucked into appropriate places in the hospital tank, too, so maybe I have at least some bio filter going.

I get that 32 gallons is harder to manage than larger, but that's what works given the constraints of my home. I've been spending tons of time at Nano-reef.com too, and have found lots of Solana owners who have pointed me towards good mods and practices. Over there they are split on chemical medium vs none. I actually have purigen and chemipure on hand, but haven't installed them yet as I've been working on starting simpler and adding only what's needed. Willing to consider these sooner than later and will read up more on them. There's always so much more to learn in this hobby, I'm learning (which is a big part of what drew me to it anyhow.) I'm an ICU nurse and a bit of a control freak, so micro-managing chemistry & biology will be right up my alley.

I won't be put off by your teaching me, and I'm happy to go read what you've already written. I've already made enough of my own mistakes that I'm delighted to learn what I can from others. Of course there are multiple answers to every question depending on who you ask on the internet, and I'm the scientific sort who has to research and weigh the evidence before acting. Any information that is thoughtful and well-researched will be well-digested It's not always easy on the internet to know who is really an expert vs who is a casual hobbyist, as both will state their experience as fact, if you know what I mean. So I'm slowly learning who to listen to, and double-checking for multiple opinions. Seems lots of folks value yours, and I'm grateful for your help.

Thanks again, I'll keep you posted,
Dawn

 

[Playapixie]

Well, now that she's in the hospital tank with copper for 8 hours, I am convinced it's Ich. For whatever reason, the spots are way more obvious now...really looks like salt spots, and there are more of them than I could see in the DT. And noticing a little itching and "flashing" today too. Super glad to have gotten them into the quarantine and started treatment! The second fish still remains spot-free.

Once you start treatment, how soon do you see improvement?

Thanks again,
Dawn

 

[leebca]

Usually, once treatment begins and the second dose of Cupramine is applied to bring the copper into the 'treatment zone' concentration, the spots will go away in a few days. The fish can, however, still be infected since the parasite is under the fish's skin.

After the treatment as recommended on the medication, hold the fish there for observation for no less than 4 weeks to be sure they are no longer infected.

Always ask about who it is you are dealing with. You are right of course that the Internet is without controls and anyone can in fact pretend to be anyone. A while back I posted my bio for all to see: Lee’s Bio

I had suspected you being in a profession requiring extra education.

Good luck! Keep us informed.

 

[Playapixie]

Update: got the tank to full treatment level of Cupramine yesterday. Both fish are tolerating treatment well & are still eating ravenously (in fact the slightly larger one, who is also they symptomatic one, is clearly exerting her dominance as the pair boss now). Absolutely no doubt it's Ich at this point, as the spots on the clown with symptoms are unmistakably "salt shaker" spots now and looks just like all the internet photos of Ich. I am so grateful I got them into the hospital tank 3 days ago instead of "waiting to see what happens"! Optimistic that they'll make a full recovery now, and I've learned my lesson on quarantining. Thanks for your help, Lee.

 

[leebca]

You're welcome and good luck!

 

[Playapixie]

Update: My tank is now at 6 months, I learned my lesson and now quarantine my new fish, and all is well! Thanks for your help, Lee.

Here's a picture from today, 6 months old

Untitled by Playapixie, on Flickr

 

[TJL]

Great news, tank looks very very nice. Such a shame that we (self included) often need lessons learned the hard way. Only took me 25 years or so to ALWAYS QT and DIP ALL CORALS no matter where/who they came from. I'm even going to QT fish and dip all corals from existing system before introducing them to my new 125g reeftank.

Cheers, Todd

 

[Playapixie]

Thanks, Todd. It's totally worth it for me at this point to keep the QT tank up. I watch new corals in it for a few days (totally inadequate lighting to go much longer), and fish for 3-4 weeks. I'm sure Lee will scold me for not watching fish in QT longer, but well, we all have limits to our patience ;-)

 

[NC2WA]

Playapixie,

Glad to hear all is well.

After 15yrs, I too learned the lesson of QT the hard way, read this:

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/f14/dear-saltwater-hobby-59254/

NOTE: This was caused as I did NOT QT the emperor angel which I believe had flukes which spread to fish to fish to fish in my main tank.

I now QT all fish that go into my 375g DT for 6wks.

I have 12 fish in my tank and everyone is doing fine.

 

[leebca]

That is a VERY attractive tank. I wish I had your ability for landscaping. Really wish you extend your QT time. It would be a shame to go through all your efforts to let a subtle parasite through.