HELP? Maroon Clownfish in trouble?

[shauna0927]

Hi,

I’ve had this maroon clownfish for app. 2 years and she has been extremely hardy. Recently she has developed a gray/white like patchiness on her body and some fins. It almost appears as if she is dirty looking . My husband and I have checked everything, (water, ph balance, nitrates, nitrites, etc.,) and everything checks out great. There are no other fish in the tank and never has been. She hasn't been acting any different and is eating very well. It seems as though over the last two months her gray areas are getting worse and her bottom (under belly) two fins is slightly worn off or torn. I will say that we have another tank that has ich on the Tangs and are addressing those issues currently with a quarantine tank. I only mention this other tank because when we feed the tangs and chromis we sometimes get a couple of drops from the dispenser into the tank where the clownfish is. We have stopped that a few weeks ago and make sure that no water from the other tank gets into the clown fish’s tank. The clownfish does not appear to have ich as she does not have salty looking specks all over. We have given the fish a bath in formalin/malachite green bath for an hour two times now and the patchiness hasn't gone away. Is the Brook? Marine Velvet? If the baths/dips haven't worked should we put her in a quarantine tank with copper in it immediately? I have read that maroon clowns don't do well with copper treatments and are sensitive to any kind of treatments. Does anyone have any ideas as to what this could be? I have posted some pictures of the clownfish although they aren't the clearest pics because the clownfish is so fast moving in the water. Hopefully, someone can help.
Thanks,
Shauna & Jason

 

[leebca]

WELCOME TO REEF FRONTIERS!

Thanks for the extensive information and photos. The photos are good enough for a review.

Anemonefishes have a significant mucous coating over their bodies. It is very specialized. That is, it allows them contact with anemones without harm. So, they have special problems when it comes to their surface.

The fish is having problems with bacteria. This is something that copper, Formalin, nor freshwater dips/baths will correct.

Usually these fishes have no problem fending off the excess of bacteria in captive systems, but in order to do this, they need to be properly nourished. Nourishment not only includes the right kinds of foods, but also the supplements of fats and vitamins, the frequency of feeding, and the quantity being fed.

Be prepared to move the fish into a quarantine tank and treat with an antibiotic (such as Maracyn Two for saltwater fish). But before you do this, I would like to know everything about the nutrition this fish is getting and possible organic sources. I would like to know:

What this fish is eating;
How often is this fish being fed;
Any use of vitamin and/or fat supplements to the foods;
Is the tank clean -- is there visual signs of detritus in the system, sump, display corners, filters;
How do you measure the pH -- if not by pH meter properly calibrated and standardized, please get a reading using this method;
What kind(s) of mechanical and chemical filtration is used on this system;
Any additives put into the water or anything you put in the water;
I would like to have the actual pH range you keep the system, the actual titrated concentrations of: Alkalinity, Calcium, and Magnesium;
Any nuisance microbial life (e.g., brown algae, red algae, bubble algae, cyanobacteria, etc) or macro life (e.g., hair algae); and
If a skimmer is being used, is it sized properly and being kept clean.

If you don't perform the above tests using a titration method, please reply with the information you have, then obtain the kits and perform the above tests. As you get the information, please post the numbers.

Of all the tests we perform, we don't have a test or handle for how polluted the water is with organics. After providing the above info, please read this post: What is Water Quality.

 

[shauna0927]

First,
Thanks so much for the in depth information. I have provided you with the answers to all your questions below. I have added a few other questions at the end also. Again, thanks!


1.What this fish is eating: She has been eating Mysis or spirulina brine shrimp for the last two years, however, two weeks ago we started to give her pemysis freshwater shrimp in hopes the high protein would help her condition out.

2.How often is this fish being fed: usually twice/day, sometimes once if we are gone but that is rare.

3.Any use of vitamin and/or fat supplements to the foods: We have been putting garlic in her food for the last two weeks but that’s it.

4.Is the tank clean -- is there visual signs of detritus in the system, sump, display corners, filters: Yes there is some detritus in the system. She is housed in a 12 gallon Aquapod and there is plenty of detritus in the back chambers and a little bit on the sand and rock in the display.

5.How do you measure the pH -- if not by pH meter properly calibrated and standardized, please get a reading using this method: Usually either dip sticks (not very accurate) and high range pH test kit by American Pharmaceuticals. A pH probe is on order for my Aquacontroler Jr.

6.What kind(s) of mechanical and chemical filtration is used on this system: The aquapod has four back chambers; the first contains the original sponge, the second has a heater and carbon filter bag, the third is empty, and the forth has the Maxijet 600 pump. There is live rock and sand in the display. There are a few pieces of live rock the second back chamber. I clean the sponge every 7-14 days and the carbon about every month.

7.Any additives put into the water or anything you put in the water: Not much lately. I have used Coral-Vite in the past when there were more mushrooms and zoas in the tank – 1-2 drops per week, but I have transferred most of my corals to a bigger tank. I also used a baster on a bi-weekly basis to stir up any detritus.

8.I would like to have the actual pH range you keep the system, the actual titrated concentrations of:
- Alkalinity: 9 KH (measured with American Pharmaceuticals)
- Calcium: 300 - yes its low (measured with American Pharmaceuticals)
- Magnesium: 800 - yes, its low (measured with Elos)
I measure the pH monthly and it is always in the 8.2 range. The test kit makes it a bit difficult to read since the color is not exact.

9.Any nuisance microbial life (e.g., brown algae, red algae, bubble algae, cyanobacteria, etc) or macro life (e.g., hair algae: Yes there has been an increase in algae over the past few months. No red algae, a few bubble algae, but I removed them with some effort. There is quite a bit of green fluffy algae and few pieces of something that resembles grape Caulerpa. I used to have a large turbo snail in there to eat the algae, but it died about 2-3 months ago. That’s when it slowly started coming back. Tried Phosguard, about 1/3 cup but it did not seem to help.

10.If a skimmer is being used, is it sized properly and being kept clean: No skimmer, but I do partial water changes. I used to do about 1 liter daily or every other day for months. The frequency decreased to about 1 gallon once or twice a week when I started setting up my new 40-gallon breeder tank.

I hope this information helps. We would really like to transfer her to the 40 gallon tank but don’t want to infect the other fish or corals in there. Could we take the rest of the live rock and coral out of her aquapod and put the antibiotics in that tank or should she be put in a quarantine tank that we have set up already?
Should we do a freshwater dip with methylene blue to see if anything falls off?
Thank you!
Shauna & Jason
Concerned parents of Maroon Clown

 

[leebca]

Thank you for completing the 'picture.' Over time the small things will count. That is the way stress acts on a fish -- the fish right away doesn't show signs of stress that a hobbyist could see, but over time, low level stressors take their toll.

I hope you like to learn by reading!

I see many stressors on this fish. None are horrible; one or two are bad; but over time they have caught up to the fish. Probably this is the single worse stressor of them all:

1. The fish is not being fed properly. This fish is an omnivore -- it needs about 30% algae-plants in its diet. It is being fed pods, but this fish is not a pod eater -- it doesn't live (well) on pods. It needs to be fed twice a day, three times if you can manage it. The quantity at each meal should be increased a bit or decreased so that in the 3 feedings, the fish is getting a bit more food daily. Please read through these posts to understand this very short statement:
Fish Health Through Proper Nutrition
and
Food Presentation

additional stressors and what to do about them:

2. The fish must have both vitamin and fat supplements (see above first link). Garlic is neither.

3. The fish is in the wrong size display. The Maroon (my favorite BTW) is the largest of the Anemonefishes. The females can reach over 6 inches long. The proper size display tank for just this fish would be a 40 gallon. Space stress is a slow killer. A post that is related to this is here:
Fish Stocking Limit – for FO and FOWLR

4. Too much bacteria in the system. With the point of 3. being established, there are too much in the way of organics getting into the system without their proper removal. All signs point to this: no skimmer, detritus build up, algae having too good of time; short water changes (see 5.).

5. Water changes aren't being done to keep up with the problem created in 3. When small (10-15%) water changes are performed frequently, the pollutants (in this case organics) don't get exported fast enough. A 10% water change can't remove more than 10% of the pollutants. A week later, another 10% water change removes only 10% of the pollutants then, not reducing the 90% left the week before. Pollutants rose to the 100% level during that week. Hard to explain, but I hope this is clear. To effectively remove pollutants, large water changes are needed. For the system described, with those equipment and 3. being the case, I would change about 3 gallons weekly for the next two months, then 3 gallons every 2 weeks after that. Since these are large water changes, follow these guidelines:
How to Make a Successful Water Change
Small, frequent water changes help keep a tank stable, but when there are pollutants in there, you want them exported out, not stabilized in higher concentrations. So you would choose to do large water changes.

6. Water quality is not where it should be. For instance, the calcium, magnesium and alkalinity all work together to provide a stable pH environment for the fish. They are important to keep proper balanced. See the BALANCED section in this post:
What is Water Quality

1. thru 6. add up to chronic (vs. acute) stressors on the fish leading to two opposing situations: 1) the fish's reduced ability to fend off the 2) larger-than-normal numbers of bacteria in the water. For a good link regarding stressors, see this long post:
Fish Stress – General

To your questions. . .Don't move the fish into the larger aquarium until you've addressed all the other stressors, other than space. Wait for the condition to come under control and either reduce or disappear. After that, the fish can be moved without much concern of this being a disease. Before the fish goes into its new home, I would give it Formalin baths just in case there is brooklynellosis hanging around (if the fish was never treated for this before).

The Aquapod will make a good quarantine tank for all your new acquisitions. On setting one up, see this post:
A Quarantine Procedure

Your statement about the QT isn't too clear to me. I may be reading more into it than I should. Are you saying you already have a QT setup? If not, then you can convert the pod to a QT. If you have a QT, transfer all water from the pod into that QT and begin the suggestions written below the conversion of the pod recommendations.

I would convert the pod to a QT by taking the fish out, saving as much of the water as you can, removing everything inside the display (coral, substrate, live and base rock, decorations that not resin or plastic, etc.), keeping the filters in place and uncleaned. Replace water. Start up system. Replace fish. Over the next couple of weeks, clean only 25% of the filter each week so as to preserve as much of the biological filter as possible.

One downside to converting the pod is any coralline or other lifeforms that have become attached to the system. In many treatments, they will possibly interfere or die creating more pollution and thus more stress on the already-stresse fish. So if you have a QT setup already, use it for this event.

Begin more and larger water changes.

Begin a proper diet immediately -- get thee to an LFS or get online to some of the Reef Frontiers sponsors.

Add supplements to each feeding.

Obtain some Maracyn Two for Saltwater fish and use it according to the instructions on the package. It's a 5-day treatment that should not be done in a display, but should be done in the QT/hospital tank. This is a good antibiotic that handles Gram Negative bacteria (which are the usual bad bacteria to our marine fishes).

Hope the above helps. I was pretty abrupt, but that was to save time, not because I have an attitude.

Good luck!

 

[shauna0927]

HELP? Maroon Clownfish in trouble

First of all, thank you for the very in-depth response to our dilemma. I love to read and especially enjoy learning new things.

Perhaps the most important was the diet for our beloved maroon. I will review the supplements and try both a vitamin and a fat product.

I agree that she is in too small of a tank. When we initially purchased her 2 years ago, she was only about 1 ½ inches long. She stopped growing about 10-12 months ago and I knew that we needed a bigger tank. That’s why we purchased a 40-gallon reef ready breeder tank when we bought our new house. We love our maroon, but didn’t want to put her in the new tank right away due to her aggressiveness. We wanted to purchase a few new additions, and then add her once they were settled in. At least, this is what I have read online and have been informed of from some fish stores about her aggressiveness.

As far as skimming goes, I did purchase the Fission skimmer and found it unreliable (as did most). I do understand what you mean about water changes now. I never looked at it that way. However, once I saw her starting to get sick, I started to do larger water changes every 3-4 days.

I honestly was a bit surprised when I tested the calcium and magnesium. I had thought that I was restoring these levels with the frequent water changes. I understand the importance of balance, but I have to say that your chart is the best I’ve seen to date. I will continue to check the levels often.

To clear things up, we have 3 tanks: A 40-gallon breeder, the 12-gallon aquapod and our new 20-gallon QT. The QT tank has a basic hang-on filter, heater, and PVC pipe. I placed the sponge in the 40 gal tank for about 1 week before adding it to the QT filter. It is just plain salt water at this point. There are no fish in the QT at this time. I was going to catch our maroon, acclimate to the QT tank and start the treatment with Maracyn Two. We initially thought she had brooklynellosis and placed her in a gallon of water with 10 drops of Rid-Ich (formalin/malachite green) for about 1 hour twice, two days apart, approximately 6 days ago. She did fine. Of course, the white patchiness didn’t go away so we thought this has to be something else. The aquapod was going to be used only for a back up tank if needed in the future. Should we do another dip in Rid-Ich after she comes out of the QT and is put in the 40 gallon?

Questions:
1. What product would you recommend for the 30% algae-plant portion of her diet? We have the Spirulina/Brine shrimp by Hikari. Should we add another product?

2. Recommendations for a Vitamin D supplementation? We have ORAglo pellets that we can give her which contain Vitamin D3. I hesitate to give these to her again since I found her swimming sideways one day and read that pellet foods can cause this. Thankfully, it resolved the next day.

Again, thanks for responding and giving detailed feedback. I appreciate it!
Jason & Shauna

 

[leebca]

I'm glad you've taken my post in the positive light it was intended. Some think I am being critical when I am trying to inform.

One thing about our marine fishes -- they don't stop growing. Ever read or hear about the fisherman who pulls in the net and finds a huge marine fish? Marine fishes don't stop growing. Most die when they get to a size where the environment-resources can't support them, gotten to by a predator, or gotten to by disease or injury.

So when you write:

She stopped growing about 10-12 months ago. . .

what I read is that the fish isn't getting the proper nutrition. It should not stop growing, even if the tank is too small IF fed properly. The concept that a fish will be stunted by its aquarium is a throw over from freshwater and to be honest, I'm not even sure it applies there. Anyone with an Arowana fish should be able to say the tank size doesn't stop their growth. Anyway. . .

After reading the posts you'll hopefully learn:
1. Freshwater mysis is not a good food choice;
2. Brine shrimp is nearly nutritionally worthless, but okay for about 5 out of 21 meals IF they are gut loaded (e.g., with Spirulina, fats, etc.);
3. Pellets are a bad choice -- most are bound together by wheat products which fish can't digest and that means this undigested parts of pellets just go through the fish to pollute the water.

There are more gems in those posts.

Regarding your questions:
1. I don't recommend brand names if I can avoid it. The posts-links provided earlier will guide you on how to read food labels. Anemonefishes should be offered macro marine algae daily -- dried algae you buy from the LFS packaged for this. Read labels of other 'herbivore' foods. Look for and use foods with natural, marine greens that are contained therein (Spirulina, kelp, macro algae, etc.). Between the greens in meaty herbivore foods (which are really for omnivores) and offering straight algae, and the supplements, the diet will be on track.

2. Vitamin and fat supplements are listed (if I recall) in the nutrition post. Vitamin D is contained in all those listed vitamin supplements in the acceptable levels. I go all the way and don't recommend using Vitamins from human sources. Use vitamins obtained from marine sources. All vitamins are not identical, even when they are labeled the same. If you're worried about the fish being short on this and Vitamin A, some spiking of the foods with cod liver oil is one such source.

Good luck!

 

[shauna0927]

Help? Maroon Clownfish in trouble again!

Hi,
First, thank you very much for the extensive information on water quality, foods, and treatments for our maroon clownfish.
I wanted to give an update as there are positives and negatives going on with the maroon. We employed many of your recommendations such as different foods, supplementation of vitamins, and a quarantine tank.
Last week we put the fish in the QT with nothing else in there. We added Maracyn Two for five days and the fish was starting to look much better. By the fifth day all but two spots on the fish were completely gone. She was eating great but a little confused because she didn't have her sand in the tank to play in. Our clownfish really enjoys moving her back fin/tail into the sand and kicking it up around the tank.
We decided to leave the fish in the QT and do one more treatment of Maracyn Two and on the 6th night she stopped eating. The next morning she was sitting at the bottom of the tank in the corner looking frightened, laying on her side (somewhat), and swimming funny (if she even swam at all). She is also not eating and exhibiting strange breathing as she is opening her mouth up larger then usual and looks like she is perhaps gasping for air.
We did a water change, sucked up any matter on the bottom of the tank, stopped the antibiotic treatment immediately, and checked all water parameters (everything is great). This is day 3 and she is still doing the same thing. We can't figure out what is wrong with her but that she almost looks like she is struggling to stay alive. Do you have any idea what is wrong with her? Is she have some other bacteria, protozoan, or fungi? Or is she stressed out in the environment with little hiding spots and no sand?
Thanks again for all your help.
Jason & Shauna

 

[Echris]

New tanks will go through a cycle, did you check for ammonia?

 

[shauna0927]

Thanks for the reply
Yes - it was my first thought as well. It is 0.0. All other water parameters are:
SG: 1.020
Temp: 78
pH: 8.3
Nitrates: 0.0
Nitrites 0.0
KH: 11

Thank you for your input. There was also an old sponge from her prior tank in there as well. I just removed it yesterday since I thought it was causing the problem. I may rinse with saltwater tonight and replace it. I also have a new bag of carbon in the filter. Did a 25% water change last night, temperature adjusted and added slowly. Lights are off for now, but some light is coming in from the other tank in the room.
Thanks again.
J + S

 

[leebca]

What guidelines did you use to set up the QT?

It sounds from your posts that you are using carbon in the QT while dosing with the antibiotic? Tell us more about the QT setup.

Are you checking for ammonia? How often do you or are you checking for water quality? Have you been checking since you started up the QT? Have you been testing. . .How often?

Are you using test kits for checking water quality or dip sticks?

Providing KH is good, but Alkalinity and the concentrations of Magnesium, and Calcium are inter-connected, so for a complete picture, all three are needed.

The fish behavior could be a reaction to a pathogen, but I would say that it most likely is a poison. Large water changes should pull it around IF the source water is pure. If that doesn't work then the matter is pathogen. Be sure of your water quality first.

The fish does not react like this from not having substrate or limited hiding spots, so don't let that concern you.

 

[shauna0927]

Hi Lee,
Thank you again for your input.
The QT tank was set up about 2 weeks ago using your guidelines (roughly). It is a 20 gal long tank with a heater and hang on filter. It has mechanical and biological filtration. Before moving her into the QT, I removed both filters and checked the water chemistry with both a dip stick and then with test kits. S.G. was confirmed as well with a refractometer. Once she was in the QT, we moved her sponge from her old tank into the QT. I didn't want it just floating around in there so I shoved it into a piece of PVC pipe. The stickers were removed and alcohol was used to remove the remaining stickiness and ink on the PVC. It was then washed and dried and placed into the QT. There was no carbon in the tank during the treatment with Maracyn Two. I followed the directions according to the package.
During her treatment, I monitored SG and adjusted with fresh water as needed. I was unsure if the biological filter was going to be fully affected by the antibiotics, so I did dip stick checks daily. Everything was good. I too do not fully trust dip-sticks, but they can give a rough estimate if something is going on. On days thee and five, I siphoned up some debris on the bottom and replaced the water (temp and SG corrected). I didn't like all the debris at the bottom of the tank. I wanted to place the filter back in the tank. I took apart the mechanical filter, removed the carbon, rinsed well in tap water and then let it dry under a fan for several hours. I placed it in the filter later that night. I also did not like her swimming near the heater all night, so I placed some left over PVC pipe fittings in as well. I cleaned then as described above. The next morning is when she started acting funny - as previously described.
I received a call about this from Shauna. I went to the LFS (trusted and owned by a friend of mine) and purchased some salt water for a water change. I have been getting water from him for the past 10 months. I do trust the water source since he uses the same water for all his in store displays. I went home on my lunch hour and checked water quality with the test kits. pH, KH, Ammonia were as described above. I placed reef carbon in the tank and removed the sponge.
I have to be honest, I have not checked calcium or magnesium in the QT tank since I felt that the water was already balanced and there are no corals. I used Reef Crystals for most of that water. I will test for Mg and Ca today and post later. This am she is now twitching at the bottom of the tank. Not good.
Lee, thank you again for your concern and I really appreciate all your help and patience with us
Jason + Shauna.

 

[shauna0927]

Mg, NO2, NO3, and Calcium levels

Hi Lee,
I just tested the water for the following:

CA-380 mg
Mg- 1000 mg-
Nitrate-0
Nirtites-0

 

[leebca]

All signs point to a poisoning, even though it isn't one of the 'common' (detectable) poisons found by test kits.

Any chance there was something on the pipes that didn't clean off? Hard to tell, I know. Any chance that one or more pieces weren't rinsed properly after cleaning?

Although water changes is the way to go, if the pipe, equipment or ? is slowly releasing some contamination, the poisoning goes on.

I am confident this new behavior is not pathogen related. I would risk putting the fish back into the main display to get it away from whatever may be the (chemical-poisoning) cause. If you feel-sense-believe this recent behavior is not chemical related then I wouldn't blame you for not doing this. It's your call. I'm further hoping that the difference between the QT water and the DT water is minimal so the acclimation doesn't have to be extensive.

I recommend this because the fish has had its proper antibiotic treatment with visual signs of improvement. I'm hoping you provide proper nutrition and would further recommend you include immune boosters to the food when the fish begins to eat again. Immune Boosters.

 

[shauna0927]

Lee Birch SAVED my life!!!

Lee,
First, thank you very much for all the extensive information that helped save our clownfish.
After your last post we decided to take a huge risk and put the fish back into it's original tank. Seeing the fish suffer from poison/toxins was not fun and she wasn't getting any better.
After three days of being in her original tank she has made a miraculous recovery and is back to her old self again. She is kicking up sand like crazy and eating 3 times a day.
We have taken your advise and have been providing her with some immune boosters such as vitamin C and beta glucan and have changed her food. She is also getting small water changes every other day and all water parameters are being closely monitored for any sign of distress.
She has no more white mucus coating/bacterium and is doing so well. WOW! What a hardy fish. We thought for sure she wasn't going to make it.
The picture I took is not the the absolute best because she kicks up too much sand and is constantly on the move, however, I just wanted you to see how good she looks, compared to the first pictures sent.
Oh, and we will be putting her in a bigger tank in about 5 weeks after the other fish are quarantined.
Thanks again for everything.
Jason & Shauna

 

[leebca]

Thank you for the update. It is good news, indeed! Keep after providing the best environment and nutrition that you can!