Help with the World of Reef chemistry

[reeftank1]

The Facts:
120 gallon/mixed reef/2x250 10k + PFO actinic/Lifereef sump, skimmer, Ca reactor/closed loop/Bare bottom with 90 lbs. rock

Tank is 2 years old and I have never done a water change. Top off has always been RO/DI and tested to be clean. I decided to do one (15 gallons) 40 days ago to benefit the corals. (Bad Idea) This seems to be where the problem lies. 35 gallons were changed 21 days ago. Hair algae began to grow and has been on the increase. Unfortunately I didn't test before the changes as everything looked so well. Now things are getting overgrown from the hair algae. I have then put in about 100 blue legs, snails of several varieties to rebuild my cleaning team. 1 week ago I ran Kent phos remover granuals for 2 days then skipped a day and did it again for 2 more. I believe my phosphates are undetectable. My test kits are Salifert and Seatest (mainly Salifert except PO4 and Sa). Foods are washed brine shrimp and julian sprung green kelp. Fish load is medium with a med. Y. tang, 2 inch wrasse, 3 inch tiger goby, 2.5 inch clown, and six line.

Tests were done in the morning before MH came on.

Temp. 77
PH 8.17
Mg 1110 ppm
Ca 22 drops to change to deep purple = 22 x 15 or 330 (Seatest)
DHk 8 or .51 on Salifert
Ca reactor eff. PH 7.11

Now that I have started testing - where do I go from here. Water change? Can the hair growth be from the new water? The Ca is definitely low and what would be the precise way to correct it? Mg appears low from all the research and the jdeick calculator. I am not real comfortable just dumping the precribed adjustments until I really know what is right. My corals seem as if they are well. Growth is not so great though. The coraline algae just doesn't slow down. My bulbs are 3 months old Ushio. MH are on 9 hrs. and actinic are 12 hrs. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Boomer]

First, who's salt did you use. I take it you used RO/DI for the WC, you do not say ? I would not really blame the WC on the hair algae. It is summer and algae problems are much more common in summer, even in reef tanks. The WC may be just a coincidence based on timing. Lots of people seem to be having more algae problems at this time.

I am not real comfrotable just dumping the precribed adjustments until I really know what is right.

Those should be in increments, 20 mg Ca++ /day and 50 Mg++ /day at different times. Use something like Kent Turbo Calcium and Kent Tech Mg. You are going to have slow growth with Ca++ below say 380 ppm.

That algae is coming form nutients, be they PO4 and/or NO3-. What is the NO3-. Also what is the salinity ? Has your temp always been 77F ?

 

[reeftank1]

more details

I goofed see next

 

[reeftank1]

more details

Thanks For the Help Boomer,

The house is always at 74-76 degrees with central air and heat. The tank seems to stay around 77 and maybe even hit 79 at the end of the light sequence. Salinity is @ 34 @ 77 degrees and this is off the dip type and the float type hydrometer. I have only used indoor oceans for salt replacement and the original mix 2 years ago. The water has always been from my ro/di and the test on that unit is 3 ppm. The color beads are still good as well. My top off is straight ro/di and about 1.5 gal. a day.

As far as the PO4. My test (2 times) comes back as a slight greenish tint if anything. It really doesn't rate to the lowest color but I know somehow there has to be some feeding the algae.

Can this also feed the coraline? It has to be scraped every 2 weeks. My tri-colored sps seems to grow about 1/4" in 2 weeks.

thanks

 

[Boomer]

Who is Indoor Oceans, that is a new one on me. I found thier website but its dead. http://www.indooroceansofpa.com/

Maybe you got some bad salt. Your parameters look OK.

The water has always been from my ro/di and the test on that unit is 3 ppm

Something is wrong that should be 0 ppm. A good RO with no DI can get 3 ppm TDS if the hardness is not to high. But I do not think 3 ppm is a big deal.

Yes it can feed the coralline. Hopefully the coralline will out compete it and die off. I take it you do not have a refugium.

An you left out Nitrate, NO3- what is it ?

Have you tried or though about using a GFO for PO4-

 

[reeftank1]

I used instant ocean salt... I don't know what I was thinking. I just bought new test kits today and will do them tonight to get a new PO4 and nitrate reading. I have only a sump and it has a reverse time light on to help keep the PH stable. There is only one type of algae that i keep and it was from the LFS in tacoma from their main refugium. Stringy type and a forgot the name but it bagan with a "c". I will again check my RO/DI water from before and after the stages and get a new reading also. I should know a whole lot more after these tests. I will try to get the name of the algae too.
Thanks,
Brian

 

[reeftank1]

Here are the latest results with fresh test kits.

Sal. 1.0245 (33)
Temp. 80 (end of day, just after lights went out)
PH 8.4(night) and falls to 8.1(morning) with reverse sump light
Ca 330-345 mg/l 22/23 drops (deep purple comes on the 23 drop)
dHK 6 (slightly low???)
Mg 1150 ppm
PO4 less than the lowest reading on Seatest kit < .2 mg/l
NO3 nearly undetectable (could be as much as 3 ppm if i interpolate the color between 0 and 5)
O2 7-8 mg/l

Reactor eff. 7.10 Hear are a couple tank shots to show the algae growth now. All the coral seem to be well and the hair continues to grow.

I have placed 1 cup of Seachem Phosguard in the sump for 4 days now. I still have Seachem carbon in the sump as well.

Sorry for the delay--- it has been a long work week.

 

[reeftank1]

Pictures

The first is the full 60 inch length of the tank. A couple sps and the last is a 15 inch hammer. they all seem to be doing well

 

[Boomer]

Sal. 1.0245 (33) .....Sill needs to get to 1.026 (35 )


Temp. 80 (end of day, just after lights went out).............OK


PH 8.4(night) and falls to 8.1(morning) with reverse sump light.......Looks good


Ca 330-345 mg/l 22/23 drops (deep purple comes on the 23 drop)
dHK 6 (slightly low???)......Need to get to 400-425 and dkH to about 9


Mg 1150 ppm....low need to get to 1300


PO4 less than the lowest reading on Seatest kit < .2 mg/l.....you sure that kit does not go lower than that ? Need to get to <.02 ppm


NO3 nearly undetectable (could be as much as 3 ppm if i interpolate the color between 0 and 5)
O2 7-8 mg/l.........way to high need to get to more like .2 ppm

Reactor eff. 7.10 .......to high. Get it lower into the mid 6's. This is part of the reason the Alk, Ca++ and Mg++ are so low. I missed this last time, sorry

A Guide to Using Calcium Reactors
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2002-05/sh/feature/index.php


Calcium Reactor setup calculator (CaCO3/CO2 reactors)
http://home.comcast.net/~jdieck1/reactor.html

Here is a guide to follow for water parameters.

Reef Aquarium Water Parameters
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php

You should try and pull as much of tha algae out as you can.

 

[reeftank1]

Boomer, thanks so much. I am going to get right on it. It seems the lack of water changes proves the nitrates are an issue. (As if nobody ever had thought of that right!!!) I have adjusted the reactor to get the eff. up. I will test that tonight to see how the changes are working. As for the fix. Is there a dose of Seachem that could help in the meantime or should I just begin with a 10-15 % water change to try to get the nitrates down first? Then retest and monitor to ensure that the levels of Alk/Mg/Ca will hold steady as the reactor begins to produce the proper eff. I will get on the algae tomorrow. The Alk is a big concern and I am wondering if I need to affect this even before the water change? thanks Brian

 

[Boomer]

I would start with the water changes first and 2- 25 % then dial in that reactor and see what you get, then we can talk about other sup's you may need. Make sure you read those articles and set-ups on how to run and dial in a calcium reactor. A reactor at pH 7.1 is not going to do much of anything for Ca++, Mg++ and Alk. Again mid 6.00's pH.

Water changes will bring up the Alk and boost the calcium and Magnesium up some what. IO has a normally low calcium, in the high mid 300's. You do not want to raise Calcium to quickly as I said before.

Those should be in increments, 20 mg Ca++ /day and 50 Mg++ /day at different times.

You may want to think about starting a refugium, this will help allot with the NO3 and PO4

 

[reeftank1]

Thanks,

I will get the water processed and set tonight and then I can get a change done tomorrow afternoon. I hope that will be enough time to let the new water stabilize. Thanks for the articles and I will get back here with an update soon. About how long should I wait before retests?

 

[reeftank1]

Sal. 1.0245 (33) .....Sill needs to get to 1.026 (35 )
35 and based on 80 degrees

Temp. 80 (end of day, just after lights went out).............OK
80 no change

PH 8.4(night) and falls to 8.1(morning) with reverse sump light.......Looks good
Ph calibrated and found after multiple tests meter has been off. Imagine that. The main tank is at 7.8 in the morning and I didn't get a reading tonight

Ca 330-345 mg/l 22/23 drops (deep purple comes on the 23 drop)
dHK 6 (slightly low???)......Need to get to 400-425 and dkH to about 9
Definite 22 drops on and 330 with dkH @ 7.6 or 2.7


Mg 1150 ppm....low need to get to 1300
1100 - still low - where do I go from here?

PO4 less than the lowest reading on Seatest kit < .2 mg/l.....you sure that kit does not go lower than that ? Need to get to <.02 ppm
good per Indoorreefs(Tacoma) test - this is the same kit that I used and we both get the same reading - Is it .02 or 2 because the Seatest kit does not go that low.



NO3 nearly undetectable (could be as much as 3 ppm if i interpolate the color between 0 and 5)
O2 7-8 mg/l.........way to high need to get to more like .2 ppm
untraceable

Reactor eff. 7.10 .......to high. Get it lower into the mid 6's. This is part of the reason the Alk, Ca++ and Mg++ are so low. I missed this last time, sorry :Eff is @ 6.58 out of the reactor now and still tweeking


You should try and pull as much of tha algae out as you can.

2.5 cups of crap ie, algae mud etc from bare bottom under rocks

Tank looks good after getting the true Ph and Eff readings. Wait or dose?
Total change 21 gallons and room is well vented.

 

[Boomer]

Let it run for a day or two, retest. Make sure the SG is where it is suppose to be 1.025-1.026. Then we will raise the calcium over 2-3 days then the Alk and finally Magnesium. Then turn on the reactor and dial it in. Let run 1 week and see what we get and adjust as needed

 

[reeftank1]

Updated test results and quetions

Thanks in advance,

I have came up with the following:

@ 3:00 p.m. (Light cycle just ended)

Temp. 80
SG - tested 3 ways.
Dip (thermometer type) shows 1.025
Fill up type 34 on the first one and the other fill up type 33.5 (2 different units)
Ca (Salifert) 25 drops - 375
dKH 7.7 or 2.77 an the result has come out just about the same for 2 days
Mg " 1170
PO4 - can't seem to get a color other than below the lightest on smallest scale (new Aquarium Systems - Seatest) Indoor Reefs in Tacoma - same result
Nitrates seem undetectable from my kit and theirs as well

Eff. has stabalized @ 6.52

How much of a difference can there be on these different SG test kits? What about the temp. calibration or other factors?

I suspect that the dip type is more accurate than the fill up types.

Anothe thought is my Pinpoint PH meter. I just calibrated it and it seem s to have been way off. After using a tiration PH test today I get about 7.8 on the color scale. The actual reading on the unit after the light cycle is 7.73. Can my corals look great and great growth color on them plus the fish look nice and relaxed but the PH be this low. It is down to 7.51 in the morning.

The hair seems to have slowed down growing too.

Thanks,
Brian

 

[Boomer]

You are using IO salt so I expected the low Calcium and Magnesium. Your pH is low as that is what reactors often do. Your SG is close enough for now

We need to fix that pH first. Is the house all closed up ? Open a window/s for a 2-4 horus if you can and get a fan to blow in outside air and inside air out, recheck pH. If it went up start a slow kalk drip and see how it goes for a couple of days. Check Alk and pH each day


Then
I have decide I want to do Mgannsium first. You are at 1170 and need to go to 1300. Use the calculator and raise the Magnesium up 50 ppm day 1, 50 ppm day 2 and 30 ppm day 3 to and recheck level

Day 4 recheck Caclium to see where it is. It shoud have gone up from the calcium reactor and kalk drip. Also recheck ALk/pH

 

[reeftank1]

Here I go, the house is central heat/air cond. It does have a fresh air cycle that I will increase also and I will get the window open to see if that helps. Another thing is there are covers (Acrylic) that are over the holes on the top of the tank. This really restricts the surface contact with fresh air and I will take them down too.

Is this to clear some of the CO2 from the room and tank? Is the first plan of attack that we get the Mg back into a sort of balance and then gradually tweak the Ca/Mg in a parallel fashion? What would a "slow" drip rate equate to? Can Seachem reef Builder be added or does that defeat the purpose and keep the PH supressed and maybe push the Mg to high? That is all for now and I will get an update in tomorrow for the PH.
Thanks,
Brian

 

[reeftank1]

Update
dKH 7.7 (Same as yesterday except the test was done at begining of light cycle)
PH 7.54 (Test in morning and we'll see tonight how it looks)

Mg - 1240 (It seems that my water volume is lower than I estimated - perhaps the volume or rock is more or less water in the sump than I figured) - total Epsom salt used after 2 supplements = 400 g split 230 g on the first dose and 170 on the second

Eff ph is right at 6.53

One other note is my Ca is 405 or 27 drops on the test and I have not started a drip or added anything else. How can that be? Is it the reactor that could be in overdrive? The eff is dropping about 55 drops a minute. It seems that the Ca has been increasing at 30/day

Brian

 

[Boomer]

This really restricts the surface contact with fresh air and I will take them down too.


Yes that can help and may be the actual problem if you do not have high indoor air CO2.

Is this to clear some of the CO2 from the room and tank?

Yes that is correct if there is high room air CO2


Is the first plan of attack that we get the Mg back into a sort of balance and then gradually tweak the Ca/Mg in a parallel fashion?

Yes, low Mg++ can create probelms of getting the Ca++ up to proper levels if it is to low.

Seachem reef Builder be added or does that defeat the purpose and keep the PH supressed and maybe push the Mg to high?

NO !! Do not add ANY buffer. You do not need a buffer for now. Buffers are for or should only be used for rasing the Alk and your is fine at 2.77. meq / l.
We may bump it up later .

my Ca is 405

Looking good but

the Ca has been increasing at 30/day

I was afraid of that. That maybe your system does not need a reactor yet based on what you have and their demands. We may be to cut back on the CO2 or even completly shut-down the reactor, if the kalk drip cures all, which is ideal. I do not want to see that calcium over 450 ppm and not below 400 ppm


Mg - 1240

That is what it is now or after the dose ?

total Epsom salt

If so stop with the epsom and get some SeaChem Reef Advantage Magnesium or Magnnesium chloride and raise to 1300 ppm. I do not want all the Mg++ in the form of sulfate, Espom salt

What would a "slow" drip rate equate to?

Read this;
What Your Grandmother Never Told You About Lime
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-01/rhf/index.htm

There is not a calculated drip rate. It depends on numerous things. It is trial and error. Try 1 drop / sec, and then start measuring the pH every 1-2 hrs. If the pH is not above 8.5 you are OK. If the pH seems to be rising to fast you can judge how much to cut it back. If it does not raise then increase it.


PH 7.54 (Test in morning and we'll see tonight how it looks)

I hope it is higher than that on your next post What is it during the late day ( 5:00 PM ) lights on ?

 

[reeftank1]

Wow,

I am sticking to the order just as you say....I have just tested the PH and it is up to 7.85 with the windows open and fan blowing. Tops are off and the PH has been slowly going up as it should. I suspect the drip of Kalk will help keep it up through the night. The corals are so open and they look as if they are growing just in one day!!! the Mg is tested after the first the first 230 grams and the second load went in this morning. I suspect it will be around 1300 or just under that if I tested it now. I have to go out of town until friday morning but I will have someone look after the Kalk which begins after the lights go out tonight 2 liters @ 1.5 tsps. Should I shut down the reactor or let it run for the 2 days and do a full panel on friday? I think that I go all the bases covered.
Brian