Herbivore package

[Burrower]

After the tank cycles I'll soon be ready to add some herbivores to start getting a handle on some of the algae that's already started growing. I've read a lot about different types of snails, crabs, shrimp, cucumbers, nudibranchs etc. I have some questions for all of you..I would appreciate your advice. There seems to be a LOT of differing opinions.

1. I was under the impression that nudibranchs will eventually just starve to death, yet many cleaner packages tend to offer them in small numbers. If it is doomed to a short life when it runs out of appropariate food, I'd rather avoid them. Do any of you keep nudibranchs, and if so what species do you recommend?

2. I want to avoid the bulldozer type snails that will topple live rock. Though my set up seems rather stable, I'd rather not have little reef engineers undermining my 6 hours of aquascaping! What species do you recommend? i'd like to keep them small, and have a mix of species to help with the multiple types of algae present in the tank.

3. Crabs....I notice two camps (even here on RF)..you either love em or hate em. Ultimately, this will be a reef tank, but we are a long ways off from introducing any coral. None the less, there will be corals in the tank in the future. Should I avoid them? I hear that many are great at eating algae, and some are better at bubble alage (of which I already see one bubble on my rock). If they are ok to put in, which have you had success with?

4. Shrimp: I know numbers of these guys are limited, but I was thinking of putting a pair of coral banded (or perhaps another) in together. Any favorite shrimp you guys have had good luck with?

5. Numbers: This is a 65 gallon tall tank with 70lbs LR. I get so much variation in how many snails/crabs etc to put in my head is spinning. The tank, as of today, is nearly done with the cycle and therefore there isn't a lot of algae to go around (though I expect that will change in the near future). How many individuals would you recommend?

6. Reputable vendors: I've been spending a LOT of time looking at the multiple vendors on line that sell inverts, and some that sell full blown janitor crews/reef cleaner packages. Two that seem interesting to me are Indopacific sea farms and Pacific East Aquaculture. What recommendations might you have?

Thanks in advance for all of your help!

 

[burning2nd]

bulldozers ya, you will get that with the bigger snails. i have only 1 mexican turbo (he is cool)
is there open bare sand.

crabs i have lots of Clibanarius tricolor 8, and one unknown crab crab, (think is called rock something)
i have 2 peppermint shrimp they are very agressive feeders, stealing food from corals and hermits and the slower moveing people in the tank.

for a tank that size, i would guess of the top of my head.

IMO

30 hermits, 50 snails (15 nassasus, 15 cierths, 10 astrea 5 bumble bees 5 torchus)

2 skunk cleaner shrimp
a brittle star, (agressive eaters)

 

[burning2nd]

the cb shrimp can be a little agressive more so then others.

what do you plan to keep in this tank?

 

[Burrower]

Thanks for the reply! I did forget to mention i have a 1" sand bed, so as you might suspect, I'd like a sand sifter in the mix. I'm still not exactly sure what we'll put in the tank yet, but I really want to be safe and take it slow...after the cleaner package, we'll get a few hardy fish (for example, gobies, cardinal fish, clownfish as potentials). When the tank matures, we want to try our hands at keeping soft /mushroom corals. Ultimately in the long term we hope to have a few stony corals, but we are a long way off from that.

 

[burning2nd]

right on right on. your sounding good already. take your time and you will do fine.

with that much sand i would recommend a bunch more nassasus snails.

there really cool to watch and with that much sand and that much space you can probly handle 40 or 50 of just them

IMO

 

[Curtswearing]

What part of Missouri are you from? Maxx, Spooda, and I are all in St. Louis.

1. I was under the impression that nudibranchs will eventually just starve to death, yet many cleaner packages tend to offer them in small numbers. If it is doomed to a short life when it runs out of appropariate food, I'd rather avoid them. Do any of you keep nudibranchs, and if so what species do you recommend?

There are a number of sea slugs that are herbivores. There are nudibranchs that are always carnivores. There are sacoglossans that are allways herbivores. Then there is the habit in this hobby of calling every slug a nudibranch when that is improper. I don't know what type of nudibranch you are discussing. However, I have a pretty good guess....a lettuce leaf nudibranch. If so, this is one of those misnamed sea slugs. It is in fact a sacoglossan (vegetarian) and if you have algae, it won't starve. If you run out of algae, throw it in your refugium. Google Elysia crispata or Tridachia crispata for more details. EDIT: However, it won't last long even if it isn't starving. Their life spans aren't that long.

2. I want to avoid the bulldozer type snails that will topple live rock. Though my set up seems rather stable, I'd rather not have little reef engineers undermining my 6 hours of aquascaping! What species do you recommend? i'd like to keep them small, and have a mix of species to help with the multiple types of algae present in the tank.

You're on the right track here. A wide variety is a good solution. Many kits give you too many Nasarrius snails. Don't go overboard on these or most of them will starve. A better substitute is Strombus maculatus which you can get from IPSF but they call it some weird name. When the snails get too big, trade them in at your LFS and replace them with smaller ones. If you can find Stomatella varia as well, that's another great snail which will reproduce whenever there's enough food for them.

3. Crabs....I notice two camps (even here on RF)..you either love em or hate em. Ultimately, this will be a reef tank, but we are a long ways off from introducing any coral. None the less, there will be corals in the tank in the future. Should I avoid them? I hear that many are great at eating algae, and some are better at bubble alage (of which I already see one bubble on my rock). If they are ok to put in, which have you had success with?

I like microhermits only. The blue legs get so aggressive, arrow crabs will kill small fish when they get bigger, even the emerald crabs can become dangerous to corals when they get bigger. (The emerald crabs are the bubble algae eaters). If you only have one bubble, manually remove it. If it's real large and about to sporulate, run a siphon next to it when you pick it off.

4. Shrimp: I know numbers of these guys are limited, but I was thinking of putting a pair of coral banded (or perhaps another) in together. Any favorite shrimp you guys have had good luck with?

Coral banded shrimp can become aggressive with smaller fish once they get bigger. I like sexy shrimp, fire shrimp, and cleaner shrimp.

5. Numbers: This is a 65 gallon tall tank with 70lbs LR. I get so much variation in how many snails/crabs etc to put in my head is spinning. The tank, as of today, is nearly done with the cycle and therefore there isn't a lot of algae to go around (though I expect that will change in the near future). How many individuals would you recommend?

I'm of the opinion that most clean up crews sold by aquarium size are way too large ensuring starvation of a portion of the crew. Then the organic phosphates in the animal become soluble orthophosphates which feeds the algae in the tank....but now you have less animals to consume it. In other words, too big of a clean up crew can actually increase your algae.

6. Reputable vendors: I've been spending a LOT of time looking at the multiple vendors on line that sell inverts, and some that sell full blown janitor crews/reef cleaner packages. Two that seem interesting to me are Indopacific sea farms and Pacific East Aquaculture. What recommendations might you have?

I have used IPSF, Inland Aquatics, Etropicals, and I've picked up individual inverts from Liveaquaria. (Some of Liveaqaria's packages are ridiculous....for instance, they would give you 2 Linkia starfish. A good number for a linkia would be 1 for a 100g+ tank. They are give you sandsifting stars which are not a good idea).

Basically, I don't like a single "Package" that I've ever seen on any website. I've always built my own packages. I also always buy a lot fewer animals than any of the packages recommend.

 

[Curtswearing]

I type too slow....LOL!!!

 

[Curtswearing]

with that much sand i would recommend a bunch more nassasus snails.

Oops....I disagreed with you but I hadn't even seen your post yet. Here's my line of thinking.

Nassarius vibex are 99% carnivore and 1% detrivore. Unless you are overfeeding your tank with meaty foods, the quantities the come with most packages guarantees that 3/4's of them will starve. The same goes for bumble bee snails (cannot remember the scientific name). Meanwhile, Strombus maculatus are herbivores and detrivores. They look nearly the same and will stir your sand too. Additionally, they will also breed in your tank feeding your corals and if enough food is present, the babies will live.

 

[NaH2O]

I would do a nice variety of snails, but as stated, try not to go overboard in numbers. You can always add more, but too many will lead to starvation issues and put those phosphates right back in the water after the snail dies. I recommend a mix of Trochus, Cerith, Nerite, Nassarius (for your bed), maybe a fighting conch, and Astraea. Try to stay away from the margarita snails, as they come from cooler waters, so they don't last long at reef temperatures. Also, just to be aware, nassarius snails are great for the sandbed by their movements, but realize they only consume left over foods and carrion. You will notice this behavior shortly after feeding the tank. They won't do anything for an algae problem except break down left overs into their waste, and so on down the chain. A sand cucumber may be something to consider down the road if you aren't happy with the turnover of sand. You can order detrivore packs from IPSF and Inland Aquatics to beef up the sand dwelling critters. I believe you can also get Stomatella from there, too.

I'd stay away from the Lettuce Sea Slug or Sea Hares until the algae is so bad you can hardly see in the tank anymore. These can meet powerhead intakes quite easily.

Crabs of any kind will be a risk. Crabs are omnivores, so they will take what they can get. I have 3 Scarlet hermits in my 120 gallon, and they've been model citizens, and are still with me over 2 years later. I think it is important if you stock hermits and other crabs to not go overboard on these, but everyone has their opinions. Some folks can't be without crabs and say the do a tremendous job picking on the rocks.

I like cleaner shrimp, and enjoy them for their behaviors.

If you keep in mind that algae cycles are part of a new tank, then the algae won't make you so crazy. There is a fine balance your tank will achieve between bacterial cycles and algal cycles. As algaes die off, the bacteria come in and bloom a little, then when the food source is gone the bacteria die off and the algae comes in, etc etc etc. Finally, your tank will achieve a balance, and you don't see the algae cycles.

Hope this helps.

 

[Burrower]

Thanks to everyone for the sound advice! Many of your comments have mirrored some of my thoughts, and others have made me reconsider! I always felt like the number of specimens offered in the typical reef package were a bit high. The more I read, the more I think i'll avoid the package and just order what I want and in the numbers best suited for my tank.

Great words of wisdom on the nudibranchs and sea slugs. Improper use of common names can be incredibly misleading. I just don't feel like I know enough about them, regardless, so I'll hold off on them for the time being.

I was thinking of getting a mix of Trochus and Cerith. Perhpas I'll also obtain some Nassarius and Nerite. I had read about the temperate nature of Margarita snails so had pretty much written them off.

For many reasons (many of which include my kids wanting to see some crabs in the tank!) I'll likely go with a few hermits as well.

Sound advice on the shrimp. I'll read more about the cleaner shrimp...they've always appealed to me too.

Someone (Nikki, perhaps) had a great comment earlier...to realize that algae was a natural part of the cycle of events that occur in a marine tank. This morning, something happened that I NEVER expected to happen. I wandered downstairs to peek at the tank while I sipped my coffe and noticed a considerable amount of algae cropping up all over the LR. What was my reaction? You'd never believe it..I was actuall excited! I knew to expect it...knew that it's presence signified the natural progression of the nitrogen cycle as my nitrates increased. It was then and there that I realized either I had gone over the deep end and was totally nuts, or that perhaps..just maybe..I was finally doing this thing the correct way (I'll vote for the latter). Time will tell. In the future, when I have gripes about algal blooms, please remind me about this thread!

On a final note, I live in a rather small town in NE Missouri called Kirksville. We don't really have a pet store here, so unfortunately trading any specimens into a LFS really isn't an option. I was hoping to become connected with regional aquarium societies, and was pleased (when I first started reading these forums over a year ago) that Curtswearing was from the St Louis area. I'd love to hear from you and others about local retailers in your area, and hope to find a group of individuals that can perhaps serve as a resource for trading specimens, etc. I look forward to hearing from you!

 

[Burrower]

Oh yeah...the Strombus snails seem like a great addition as well! I'll get some of those too.

 

[Curtswearing]

I know Kirksville well. One of my friends went to Truman State University.

If you ever want to make the trip, St. Louis has two reef clubs while there is only one other club in the rest of the state.

http://www.seasl.org/ (You just missed a special meeting where Marine Solutions closed down early for a SEASL pizza party with 20% discounts on all purchases. Next months meeting on fish breeding and coral fragging is detailed on the website. Eric Borneman is coming in November. PM me if you ever want to be a guest at one of our meetings). All of the fish stores in the St. Louis area are also on that webpage.

http://www.slashclub.org/ SLASH is very new and hasn't brought in guest speakers like Anthony Calfo, Eric Borneman, etc. yet. However, both clubs have forums on RC where you can buy/sell used items, trade frags via a thermos, etc.

SEASL also has a private forum on seasl.org. However, you have to become a SEASL member to access it.

Oh yeah...the Strombus snails seem like a great addition as well! I'll get some of those too.

If you're going to order from IPSF, get some bristleworms as well. Just don't ever touch them without gloves. They are an amazing addition to any clean up crew.