High Nitrates.. Need advice

[dibblm]

Tank Description. 135 Gallons. 72 X 18 X 24
ETSS 600 Pro skimmer. Running Blue Line 55 pump on skimmer
ETSS 72 Pro Sump. Running Blue Line 70 for return water
(2) Rio Seio Power heads
Tank has aprox 3 to 4" Sand bed.

>Lighting 72" PFO Solaris LED. 375 Watts.

Roughly 180 Lbs live rock in tank. and another 15 or so in sump.

Sump was designed to use filter socks and have removed them as they seem to be a nitrate trap as well.

>Livestock..
1 desjardini tang
1 naso tang
2 small false percula clowns
2 dragon gobies
1 yellow tail damsel

1 cleaner star
2 sea cucumbers
1 sea hare
20 or so snails
10 or so crabs

Yellow leather coral
open brain coral
xenia
green frogspawn
pink frogspawn
mushrooms
clam

have done 30 Gallon water changes every other week for the last 3 months.
Have changed salts 3 times.
Use RO water

will include pictures if I am able to.

ok. Pictures are attached. Taken with lights about to shut off so there not for asthetics.

 

[DonW]

Looks like you should have no problems. I'd remove everything including the lr from the sump. Then keep up the water changes. Also check your overflows for detritus build up. Also stick with one salt.

Don

 

[dibblm]

Can anyone tell from the looks of the skimmer. That is if anyone else is running an ETSS skimmer. Is it functioning correctly or skimming correctly?

Some days a get a full can of almost all water. Some days it takes 2 days to fill with tea color.


Also..........why remove the rock from the sump?

 

[Krish]

Sorry to hear about your nitrate issues.:doubt: To add to what was already mentioned, I was curious if that was bio-bale you have in your sump in attachment 4 under the carbon bag? If so, that could also be a nice nitrate trap if not cleaned regularly. It isn't as bad as being used in a wet/dry environment, but in any event a great place for waste to settle and degrade water quality (ie if it is bio-bale or something similar). Also, I agree with removing the live rock etc from the sump. Without proper flow, you'd need to vaccum it out weekly so as to not have detritus buildup in there from shedding rocks. Just a thought...Good luck and hope you get things under control

BTW, Welcome to RF if I haven't welcomed you already

 

[mmkeeper]

As you try to lower your nitrates, check your replacement water for nitrates first. How long has your tank been setup? Have you added any new livestock lately?

 

[Pikachu]

Have you thought about adding macro-algea and lights to your sump? Nice lights by the way, the must have cost a fortune.

 

[dibblm]

Well this was my first tank. Its been setup maybe a total of 6 months. I have almost 10,000 in it total. The light was 3500. And NO Im not bragging. I just wanted to do it right the first time. And to anyone out there reading.... I did all the research first. I figured not to skimp and just do it right... Well I was WRONG !!!! doing the research and buying what everyone seemed to have called the best was the absolute wrong way of doing things.

My sump isnt a very adequate design to convert into a refugium it is designed specifically for the etss skimmer. And to be used in the Berlin method. I can most likely add some cheato to the middle chamber which isnt very big. The first chamber would most likely cause it to be sucked up into the skimmer.

I have never cleaned the bio bale and will remove it today.

I also wasnt aware that skedding of the rocks would cause Nitrates. Is there anything or anyone to back this up? I was always under the impression that live rock rubble replaced bio balls and they were to be used to collect the waste.

Is there anyone else that has started this way and removed the live rock rubble?

 

[Krish]

I also wasnt aware that skedding of the rocks would cause Nitrates. Is there anything or anyone to back this up? I was always under the impression that live rock rubble replaced bio balls and they were to be used to collect the waste.

Live rock doesn't collect waste. Live rock is basically a place for bacteria to grow to process the waste. One bacteria breaks down the ammonia into nitrite then another into nitrate and deep within the rock in the anaerobic zone another bacteria converts nitrates into nitrogen gas. One of the reasons why you want good flow in your tank is to catch all the deadspots because if detritus is allowed to accumilate by settling in certain areas lacking flow, it will degrade water quality which in turn shoots up nitrates and fuels nuicance algae to grow. All rocks shed dead organic matter which must be removed which is done by mechanical filtration, skimming water changes siphoning it up etc. So, in your sump, the same care is needed. Either good flow to keep the detritus from settling or accumilating or critters to consume it. If you were to lift your rock up out of your sump, you'd be surprised at the amount of detritus that will be settled under there.

Here's a pic to describe what I mean. This is the detritus I siphoned out of my old sump with only 3 small rocks in it...As a result, I removed the rocks which in turn helped with my nitrate issues. I'm not saying that live rock in a sump isn't helpful, but it needs special care. Anthony Calfo also made mention as to using live rock in your sump which I need to find for you when I get back online later, but in a nut shell, the live rock you have in your tank is usually sufficient enough to perform all the biological functions for you need. Just a thought...Hopefully others will chime in to confirm

 

[dibblm]

Let me add. I removed the bio-bale. Instantly, well almost anyways.. Nitrates went from 80 to 20.

Ill remove the rubble. and wash it out.

question next is....Do I wash it out and put it back in or remove it completely?

 

[Scooterman]

Live rock rubble is good & bad, it can work as a denitrifier but the fact that it is rubble it piled together will just allow detritus to collect same with the bio-bail! When LR sheds that is basically flack, it isn't something you want in your tank, the shed isn't the same as rubble, it is what is left after it processes all it can. It is easy to spend a lot very quickly in this hobby, It takes years not months of learning to really get a good grasp of what is going on in a reef tank, what works & what doesn't. Other than doing what is suggested above I would take what you have & do the best to make it work. Whatever changes you do, take your time & don't do anything sudden, I think here at RF you will get lots of experiences & opinions like in any forum but we will do our best to help you & get you the best you can, just take slow gradual steps. One more piece of advice, If your anything like most reefers, you will find that DIY will go a long way to getting exactly what you want, don't be afraid to try your hand at it.

Well this was my first tank. Its been setup maybe a total of 6 months. I have almost 10,000 in it total. The light was 3500. And NO Im not bragging. I just wanted to do it right the first time. And to anyone out there reading.... I did all the research first. I figured not to skimp and just do it right... Well I was WRONG !!!! doing the research and buying what everyone seemed to have called the best was the absolute wrong way of doing things.

My sump isnt a very adequate design to convert into a refugium it is designed specifically for the etss skimmer. And to be used in the Berlin method. I can most likely add some cheato to the middle chamber which isnt very big. The first chamber would most likely cause it to be sucked up into the skimmer.

I have never cleaned the bio bale and will remove it today.

I also wasnt aware that skedding of the rocks would cause Nitrates. Is there anything or anyone to back this up? I was always under the impression that live rock rubble replaced bio balls and they were to be used to collect the waste.

Is there anyone else that has started this way and removed the live rock rubble?

 

[Scooterman]

Remove the rubble & bio-bail, clean that sump, & great news on the reduction, that is great! Oh yea, your skimmer seems to be doing it right from what I see!

 

[trido]

I agree that your skimmer looks to be working well. YOu have a real nice looking set up BTW. I dont think you screwed up by buying the good stuff to begin with. Ive been at this (reef keeping) for a year and due to my impulse buying and lack of research. I have a second tank and a small grave yard of useless equipment already.

How much circulation do you have in the display? Specifically, How big is your return pump? What size are the Seios? Do you storm the tank at all when you do water changes? If you have low flow in the display and dont storm you might have a few dead spots with build up causing your nitrates to come from there as well.

Regarding your sump, Does the skimmer take water from the first chamber with the LR? Do you have a submersible return pump? It looks to me like your sump is large enough that you could easily fit a refugium area in there with just one or two baffles.

 

[Krish]

Let me add. I removed the bio-bale. Instantly, well almost anyways.. Nitrates went from 80 to 20.

Ill remove the rubble. and wash it out.

question next is....Do I wash it out and put it back in or remove it completely?

Congrats on the nitrate reduction! As for the rubble, It isn't totally necessary like I mentioned to use it as the live rock in your tank will be able to perform all of the biological functions on it's own. However, the fact that you are using rubble in your sump means that your system is relying on it to some degree so removing it all at once from the system and not replacing it ever at all, could shock your system so if you plan to remove it altogether, I'd remove it slowly over time so your tank can adjust to the changes. If you still want to use the rubble, then you can just remove it, vaccum the sump out, "swish" the rubble in old tank water to get off the loose detritus and then replace it. There is no harm in using rubble in your sump. You have to go with what works best for you so don't let anyone tell you it's a "no no". I personally wouldn't use rubble in my sump nor sand, but that is my personal preference and works for me. However if you like the idea of having the rubble, then I'd use it, but just make sure to keep an eye on the detritus build up over time

Good luck!

 

[saltybell]

If your not using rock, bio balls, bio bail or anything else in the sump, what is the use of having a sump? Is it just to house the skimmer? I had bio balls in my sump then went to LR now everyone seems to be taking everything out of the sump. I know there is no real right or wrong way here but is nothing in the sump the new idea?

 

[LakeEd]

Dibblm,

One more thing that I haven't seen touched on here yet... is how much you are feeding your tank. Nitrates have to have something decomposing to come from. If you are feeding your tank on the heavy side, this is most likely another cause of your Nitrate buildup.

I don't know your feeding schedule, but if you typically feed twice a day... try cutting back on those feedings. You can do this by cutting back the amount you feed... as well as how often you feed. The more your fish are foraging around your live rock, the less will be available to break down becoming Nitrate.

Keep us informed as to your progress. It sounds like you are well on your way already to getting your Nitrate’s under control!

 

[Krish]

If your not using rock, bio balls, bio bail or anything else in the sump, what is the use of having a sump? Is it just to house the skimmer? I had bio balls in my sump then went to LR now everyone seems to be taking everything out of the sump. I know there is no real right or wrong way here but is nothing in the sump the new idea?

LOL! Well, more water equals more stability so people will go with the biggest sump they can fit to add more volume to their system to provide them with more stability. Other than that, like you mentioned, a sump is a good place to hide equipment like skimmers, heaters etc. Also, it can be used as place to house a macro algae in a refugium section for nutrient export as well as add extra flow to the tank via the return pump. I agree though, people use to use sumps for bio-balls in a wet/dry environment, but as well all know, wet/dry's are nothing but nitrate factories as their end product is nothing, but nitrates as they have no way of performing denitrification. Then people started using live rock for like the Berlin method etc which is effective, but then some tend to get tired of having to keep their sumps clean as well so they removed the live rock (like in my case) and just rely on the rock in the display to do all the work. Just think of sand beds these days. People use to run nothing but deep sand beds or shallow sand beds, but bare bottom tanks are getting very popular. Why??? Because it's easier in a way to keep a clean tank without all the waste that can get trapped in a sand bed as well as you don't have to worry about sand storms from too much flow or a sand bed crash. I never had a nitrate free tank until I lost the live rock in my sump and went bare bottom. In any event, you have to go with what works for you. There's no one way to go about things in this hobby

 

[saltybell]

sumps for more water volume makes sense. I however, am going to keep the rock in my sump and just be a rebel.

 

[Krish]

LOL! No harm in that. Just make sure to keep the sump clean

 

[dibblm]

I agree that your skimmer looks to be working well. YOu have a real nice looking set up BTW. I dont think you screwed up by buying the good stuff to begin with. Ive been at this (reef keeping) for a year and due to my impulse buying and lack of research. I have a second tank and a small grave yard of useless equipment already.

How much circulation do you have in the display? Specifically, How big is your return pump? What size are the Seios? Do you storm the tank at all when you do water changes? If you have low flow in the display and dont storm you might have a few dead spots with build up causing your nitrates to come from there as well.

Regarding your sump, Does the skimmer take water from the first chamber with the LR? Do you have a submersible return pump? It looks to me like your sump is large enough that you could easily fit a refugium area in there with just one or two baffles.

Circulation -- CPR 102 overflow. Rated at 1200 GPH.
Return Pump -- Blue Line 70 rated at 1750 GPH
Skimmper Pump -- Blue Line 55 rated at 1100 GPH with 28 Ft Ponds at the head.

Sump -- Skimmer and pump are connected to the first chamber. Water walls in right over the intake and the skimmer returns it to the same chamber. Only at the other end of that chamber.

STORM ? -- what is this reffering to ?

 

[dibblm]

Dibblm,

One more thing that I haven't seen touched on here yet... is how much you are feeding your tank. Nitrates have to have something decomposing to come from. If you are feeding your tank on the heavy side, this is most likely another cause of your Nitrate buildup.

I don't know your feeding schedule, but if you typically feed twice a day... try cutting back on those feedings. You can do this by cutting back the amount you feed... as well as how often you feed. The more your fish are foraging around your live rock, the less will be available to break down becoming Nitrate.

Keep us informed as to your progress. It sounds like you are well on your way already to getting your Nitrate’s under control!

Feeding Schedule --
Mornings >> Usually I add (2) small pieces (about 4 inch square) of algae. and a first knuckle on my fingers worth from a turkey baster of either brine shrimp or Emerald Entree.

Nightly >> 1 piece of algea and a small pinch of flake.

Personally i didnt think I was feeding too bad. I really don't have alot of fish for the size tank i have. IMO..

For one other comment of feedings though. I wasn't aware you needed to actually rinse frozen cubed food. I was just disolving it in a cup and feeding from there. I have since started rinsing my frozen foods.