High Nitrates.. Need advice

[dibblm]

LOL! Well, more water equals more stability so people will go with the biggest sump they can fit to add more volume to their system to provide them with more stability. Other than that, like you mentioned, a sump is a good place to hide equipment like skimmers, heaters etc. Also, it can be used as place to house a macro algae in a refugium section for nutrient export as well as add extra flow to the tank via the return pump. I agree though, people use to use sumps for bio-balls in a wet/dry environment, but as well all know, wet/dry's are nothing but nitrate factories as their end product is nothing, but nitrates as they have no way of performing denitrification. Then people started using live rock for like the Berlin method etc which is effective, but then some tend to get tired of having to keep their sumps clean as well so they removed the live rock (like in my case) and just rely on the rock in the display to do all the work. Just think of sand beds these days. People use to run nothing but deep sand beds or shallow sand beds, but bare bottom tanks are getting very popular. Why??? Because it's easier in a way to keep a clean tank without all the waste that can get trapped in a sand bed as well as you don't have to worry about sand storms from too much flow or a sand bed crash. I never had a nitrate free tank until I lost the live rock in my sump and went bare bottom. In any event, you have to go with what works for you. There's no one way to go about things in this hobby

Aren't sand beds used for denitrification as well though?

I was reading somewhere, that someone had come up with a method of a remote deep sand bed in a 5 gallon bucket or so. They were using this for the denitrification.

Granted I have taken to heart with everything..Do what works and don't depend on someone elses advice as gold to fix your problems. However since I dont yet know how to ask the appropriate questions to solutions I don't know the problem to, to start with. I start by asking for solutions and waiting for enough responses that someone like whats happened here will respond with the answer to the question I didn't know to begin with.....

I should have just started by asking what does it require to rid Nitrates. If Ammonia turns to Nitrite and so forth turning to nitrate. What rids nitrates. Is it the skimming? Is it filtering through the sand, the rock? is it circulation? All?

Biggest thing though for me being a newbie is not noticing any ill symptons from my fish or coral they all seem to do just fine. Colors and all. I however cannot keep and anenome.. (2) down and I will stop here till I find my nitrate issues.

 

[Krish]

Aren't sand beds used for denitrification as well though?

Yes they are, but only deep sand beds where there are anaerobic zones. Shallow sand beds don't have anaerobic zones so do nothing for denitrification as an anaerobic bacteria is responsible for denitrification. Seeing I run a bare bottom tank, my live rock does all of my denitrification. I haven't run a sand bed in almost a year and havent read any traces of nitrates since a few months after going bare bottom. However that works well for me. I also do water changes every week of about 15-20% so that helps as well. My philosophy is remove the waste before it has a chance to cause any problems which is what I do

 

[dibblm]

Well Im still doing water changes bi-weekly at this point. with a 2 stage 50 gallon a day RO system.

Would you say that 3 to 4 inches is whats considered shallow or deep sand bed?

 

[trido]

Circulation -- CPR 102 overflow. Rated at 1200 GPH.
Return Pump -- Blue Line 70 rated at 1750 GPH
Skimmper Pump -- Blue Line 55 rated at 1100 GPH with 28 Ft Ponds at the head.

Sump -- Skimmer and pump are connected to the first chamber. Water walls in right over the intake and the skimmer returns it to the same chamber. Only at the other end of that chamber.

STORM ? -- what is this reffering to ?

To storm a tank refers to using a power head or turkey baster to blow detritous out of the nooks and crannies of the LR. Some reefers do it befor a water change and some just because. I do It when my sand is looking nasty and storm my whole tank including the sand as well. I dont have a DSBin the display tank. Its only cosmetic and I siphon it during water changes.

The reason I asked about your pumps is that my first thought is that you might be lacking in a little flow in your display causing dead spots for detritoius to build. Your skimmer pump doesn't count.:razz: From what you have listed. You have the blue line at 1700GPH and I am not sure what you mean by CPR overflow. Is that a pump? In your first post you listed two Seio power heads. What do they push? Ideally you want to turn the water over a minimum of 30x an hour in your display. Some try for 40-50x on average nowdays with bare bottom. You may have sand storm issues if you dgo that high. I turnover at 40x and dont have much sand problems(my clowns are my sand problem)but I also have 16 adjustable loclines topside.

In regards to your fuge, you may have just enough room in the first compartment if you just redirect the right side overflow closer to the left and silicone a baffle in there. It doesnt have to be a 30 gallon compartment to house Cheato. Just enough to keep it alive and from getting sucked out.
Keep of ming that your tank is a work of art in progress. The plumbing is part of that art and is subject of change too.

 

[Krish]

Would you say that 3 to 4 inches is whats considered shallow or deep sand bed?

I think that would be considered a ssb (shallow sand bed), but could be wrong. I think it is 5 or more inches for a deep sand bed. I never really got into deep sand beds all that much because I never liked the look and heard many stories about beautiful tanks that crashed as a result of a dsb crashing so I stayed away. Also, it requires special care because you don't want to disturb the lower levels when cleaning etc. However, I ran a few ssb's (about 2 inches deep) but got tired of vaccuming the sand bed every week to get out all of the detritus/waste as well as having sand storms from all of the flow so I removed it. With bare bottom, I can have the flow wide open to where nothing settles on the bottom and so either the corals can use it up or my skimmer or mechanical filtration could take care of it which is where I sit at. They have quite a few threads on here about the different types of setups and their pros and cons, but it always boils down to what works for you. I never really had success with 0 nitrates running a sand bed, whereas I'm sure there's tons of people who never had success with 0 nitrates running a bare bottom tank

 

[Scooterman]

Well Im still doing water changes bi-weekly at this point. with a 2 stage 50 gallon a day RO system.

Would you say that 3 to 4 inches is whats considered shallow or deep sand bed?

It has been tested that even a 1" bed will provide nitrification but yes DSB would typically be considered 4" to 6"

 

[ecobalance]

less technology more biology

A sump wih a deep sand bed is a pure biological way of running a reef or fish tank and should not be hampered in any way in means of mechanical filteration[filter sock]if u insist on useing the sock,hen itt has to be cleaned up to twice a day,and the sand bed has to be fed or the things like micro fana copepods amphpods etc will not populate fast enough or in enough numbers. The sand bed need not be lighted unless u plan on growing macro algae for phosphate and nitrate export,via cultivation.the depth is regulated by grain size,smaller on the bottom layer and slightly bigger on the top.A good way to explain this would be figi pink reef sand on the bottom layer and and reef select on the topabout 2 inches of each works well.Lighting it on a reverse photto period will help stableize your ph.It should never be touched or cleaned inany way and usually takes a year or so before it is working to its full capasity.Some people have moved to bare sumps with the belief that acumlated phosphates in the sand bed will be released or leach back into the systtem eventually,but this cant happen unless the ph drops bellow 7 resulting in the desolving of the aggronite and release of bound phosphates.If u choose to use rubble in the sand[to hold down chatto]then some sortt of branch is the best choice.The key is to not mix and match methods,and in my oppinon filtter socks or pads have no place in this type of set up.It is my method of choice due to lack of maintance totally with exception of algae cultivation and occasional stiring of the sand with a sttick little bits at a time to loosen and clumps in the bottom smaller grain area.If large amounts of algae are used than occasional carbon use will be needed to ge yellow tinge out of water

 

[ecobalance]

keep it simple

"what can be done with less is done with more in vane"

 

[Scooterman]

A sump wih a deep sand bed is a pure biological way of running a reef or fish tank and should not be hampered in any way in means of mechanical filteration[filter sock]if u insist on useing the sock,hen itt has to be cleaned up to twice a day,and the sand bed has to be fed or the things like micro fana copepods amphpods etc will not populate fast enough or in enough numbers. The sand bed need not be lighted unless u plan on growing macro algae for phosphate and nitrate export,via cultivation.the depth is regulated by grain size,smaller on the bottom layer and slightly bigger on the top.A good way to explain this would be figi pink reef sand on the bottom layer and and reef select on the topabout 2 inches of each works well.Lighting it on a reverse photto period will help stableize your ph.It should never be touched or cleaned inany way and usually takes a year or so before it is working to its full capasity.Some people have moved to bare sumps with the belief that acumlated phosphates in the sand bed will be released or leach back into the systtem eventually,but this cant happen unless the ph drops bellow 7 resulting in the desolving of the aggronite and release of bound phosphates.If u choose to use rubble in the sand[to hold down chatto]then some sortt of branch is the best choice.The key is to not mix and match methods,and in my oppinon filtter socks or pads have no place in this type of set up.It is my method of choice due to lack of maintance totally with exception of algae cultivation and occasional stiring of the sand with a sttick little bits at a time to loosen and clumps in the bottom smaller grain area.If large amounts of algae are used than occasional carbon use will be needed to ge yellow tinge out of water

Having a remote DSB has less benefits than having it in the main display, Its design relies on the availability of food that isn't as easily moved down to the remote area, more so in your typical reef tank set-up. The DSB will become problematic, even if the PH is 7, It would depend on a few things, once that sink is full it will leach & DSB's in the sump tend to be way smaller so they fill up quicker.

Here is a good start!
http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2670

http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5476

 

[Murfman]

OK, I am going to stir the pot here a little. I don't really worry about my nitrates, unless they get way high. I monitor the tank and its inhabitants to tell me if there are issues going on. I have a 125 with ClM and use an EV-180 for filtration. I have a 55 gallon sump/fuge with Cheato and Feather and Sawblade calurpa. I prune the macro and feed it to my main tank every couple of weeks. I have good growth on all of my corals and virtually no micro algae to speak of. I do clean my glass once a day but the clean up crew does a great job of it. I run poly fiber between the fuge and return pump to catch any detritus that is not picked up by the skimmer. This keeps it from returning to the main tank. Here is a good article to read on nitrates

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/august2003/chem.htm

 

[burning2nd]

ur not a rebel dude, i got lr in my sump as well....


even tho its smaller then yours i hear ya.

need that light tho down there. keep with the water changes reduce the food and your good to go.

 

[Scooterman]

Hey MurfMan it would help to know what type of corals you keep, some actually do well with some Nitrates.

 

[Krish]

OK, I am going to stir the pot here a little. I don't really worry about my nitrates, unless they get way high. I monitor the tank and its inhabitants to tell me if there are issues going on. I have a 125 with ClM and use an EV-180 for filtration. I have a 55 gallon sump/fuge with Cheato and Feather and Sawblade calurpa. I prune the macro and feed it to my main tank every couple of weeks. I have good growth on all of my corals and virtually no micro algae to speak of. I do clean my glass once a day but the clean up crew does a great job of it. I run poly fiber between the fuge and return pump to catch any detritus that is not picked up by the skimmer. This keeps it from returning to the main tank. Here is a good article to read on nitrates

I guess whatever works for your setup! However, people keeping sensitive corals won't be able to go with your approach as their corals would never make it. Do you actually test for nitrates or like you said wait till your "tank" tells you something is wrong? The reason why I ask is if you don't test for them and everything is going well, the fact that you use macro algaes for nutrient export may mean you don't have any detectable traces of nitrates in your system (or very low levels) and so you don't have any issues. However, when your tank isn't doing so well may be the times when nitrates are on the rise for one reason or the other (ie if you don't test). However, if you do test, what are your nitrate levels usually at and also, like Scooter mentioned, what types of corals do you keep? Thanks for the input!

 

[dibblm]

Like everyone sayd finding what works for you. However trying to find that is where Im at.

I have removed the bio bale. The nitrates went down and right back up a couple hours later.

Next day removed all the rubble from the sump and redistributed back into the main display. No help. Waited a couple days for change and nothing yet.

I have attached a picture from ETSS site. This is my current setup in maybe a way that is easier to see.

The middle chamber I beleive is the only place that I have to put chaeto or other plant matter. Unless I dont need anything for a bottom. Such as a dsb here or even garf grunge? If indeed I dont need it here and I only need just the cheato suspended in the water I could easily add it to both chamber 1 and 2. I wouldnt want it to go in the third chamber I dont beleive unless im wrong.

As far as clearing up circulation. The SEIO's are (2) 820's

BL70 = 1750
(2) 820's = 1640+1750=3390
135 gallon tank plus 30 gallon sump =165 gallons X 10 = 1650.

so if this is correct im actually moving 20 times the water not 10 times. granted this isn't great but would be considered adequate ? And if this is correct then circulation shouldnt be my issue? If thats true I rule that problem out.

My sand bed is between 3 and 4 inches and being told that isnt deep enough for a true DSP setup although it stretches my whole tank.? 3 X 18 X 72 =
3888 Sq inches. I thought this was ok. This could be my issue. If it is how do I fix it? Do I simply add more sand?

I was also under the misconception here about cleaning and vacumming sand. Most people say not to touch it. Some people in this post have said they vaccum theirs. From what i read I dont beleive myself personally in vaccuming as your taking out the good with the bad. Then what do you have to do the work for you?


What about feeding a DSB? Should I be buying and feeding marine snow? My rocks when they were curing seemed to have at first been crating there own snow when i was turkey basting and that seems to have died down some as not as much comes out of the rocks now.

Long enough post ? Thanks for the help by the way.

 

[dibblm]

Well after doing some reading about and earler link reffering to DSB's I think I might have made a big mistake. Curing rock on the sand bed.

when I bought all my goods, I bought all uncured rock. I wanted to go through the stages of dealing with the curing process. To see how long it would take to cure the rock and watch the nitrification cycle.

However in one of the threads. I read if you cure live rock you could basically deplete the usefullness of the DSB. Could this be my cause?

After only 6 months of my tank being setup. Is my DSB depleted already and I have to remove it?

Keeping in mind as well my sand bed is in my display not the sump.

 

[DonW]

I think your expecting things to happen to fast. If you have nitrates and remove the biobale your still going to have nitrates the next day and even the next week. Moving the rock and the biobale is just first step. Now start doing water changes to bring the N down to 0. Its going to take weeks for the tank to stabilize.

Don

 

[Krish]

I agree with Don...It took me a few months to get from 10 pm of nitrates to 0 and that's with doing stuff like removing my bio-balls, removing the little bit of LR I had from my sump, going bare bottom and doing tons of water changes. Your tank will need to find it's balance which will take some time. Water changes will be your best friend as it will help dilute the nitrates.

 

[Krish]

Here's a few replies to some of your questions

so if this is correct im actually moving 20 times the water not 10 times. granted this isn't great but would be considered adequate ? And if this is correct then circulation shouldnt be my issue? If thats true I rule that problem out.

Here's a thread that will give you some ideas as to what people are using for flow in various sized tanks. In one of my tanks, I had over 100x turnover rate. You don't need that much flow, but you do want full coverage to keep all detritus in suspension
http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18140

The middle chamber I beleive is the only place that I have to put chaeto or other plant matter. Unless I dont need anything for a bottom. Such as a dsb here or even garf grunge? If indeed I dont need it here and I only need just the cheato suspended in the water I could easily add it to both chamber 1 and 2. I wouldnt want it to go in the third chamber I dont beleive unless im wrong.

Your chaeto can sit in the bare sump by itself. You'd just need enough flow going through there to have it tumble. Here's what Anthony Calfo had to say about it...

Previously posted by Anthony Calfo my advice is to please try to adjust your water flow to get your Chaeto as ball shaped and tumbling for optimal growth, health and vigor (see tips in the thread for doing this).

Minimum of 5 watts per gallon of warm daylight here (10 watts per gallon would be much better). Weekly water changes to dilute and replenish elements of water quality that are bad and good respectively.

My sand bed is between 3 and 4 inches and being told that isnt deep enough for a true DSP setup although it stretches my whole tank.? 3 X 18 X 72 =
3888 Sq inches. I thought this was ok. This could be my issue. If it is how do I fix it? Do I simply add more sand?

I can't say for sure what is optimum depth for a dsb...Someone else may need to chime in on that, but in any event, with what you have now, how do you go about taking care of it? Do you vaccum it like you would a ssb or let it basically run it's course like a dsb would? The reason why I ask is because if you are not technically running a dsb and are not caring for it like you would a ssb, then you may have an accumilation of waste in that sand bed driving up nitrates. Just a thought...

 

[dibblm]

Here's a few replies to some of your questions



Here's a thread that will give you some ideas as to what people are using for flow in various sized tanks. In one of my tanks, I had over 100x turnover rate. You don't need that much flow, but you do want full coverage to keep all detritus in suspension
http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=18140




Your chaeto can sit in the bare sump by itself. You'd just need enough flow going through there to have it tumble. Here's what Anthony Calfo had to say about it...





I can't say for sure what is optimum depth for a dsb...Someone else may need to chime in on that, but in any event, with what you have now, how do you go about taking care of it? Do you vaccum it like you would a ssb or let it basically run it's course like a dsb would? The reason why I ask is because if you are not technically running a dsb and are not caring for it like you would a ssb, then you may have an accumilation of waste in that sand bed driving up nitrates. Just a thought...

I feel you are most likely correct about the sand bed being a problem as well. Hoewever till I can get my gallon bucket filled I wont be able to tell till after the first 5 to 10 water changes it seems.

 

[Scooterman]

Give it time as Don mentioned, your on the right track, also a true DSB will not even get well started in 6 months, they take time to really get established.