Saw this this morning and thought I'd share:
Activated Carbon: HLLE Smoking Gun Found | Coral Magazine
Activated Carbon: HLLE Smoking Gun Found | Coral Magazine
HLLE and Activated Carbon
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Scooterman
Well-known member
Moved to Boomers forum.
I wonder if it should also be "copied" to Les' forum? Seems that it deals with both of their fields of experience, and neither of them make a habit of leaving their own forums much...lol
Boomer
Well-known member
Well, first it is not a smoking gun or something new. There are many serious issue with that article. From a friend:
"If you put three groups of people in small apartments and make them live together, and put lignite activated carbon in one, granulated activated carbon in the other one, and no activated carbon in the third, and the group of people in the apartment with lignite carbon in it all get a cold, does that mean that lignite carbon causes colds, or that one person in that apartment happened to have a cold and spread it to everyone else? "
They only tested 3 tanks. On some recent remarks to the authors they never even considered or thought of the GAC issue is not the GAC but dust from the GAC and they never rinsed theirs. How many times I have posted to ALWAYS rinse the GAC well for fines/dust or any tapped gases in the pores.
I will add more of my thoguhts;
1. GAC-less tanks have/get HLLE
2. GAC tanks do not get HLLE always, i.e, I use to run 1 liter of Lignite GAC / 30 gals of net water 24 / 7, changed 1 / m for 20 years and never got HLLE.
3. IMHO it is a not a GAC thing / say.
.....a) To much GAC dust from improper rinsing of the GAC
.....b) The GAC is taking something out of the water affecting fish.
.....c) The GAC is binding something into the GAC dust that is affecting fish.
.....d) The GAC is taking something out of the water leaving something else behind affecting fish.
.....e) The GAC is leaving something in the water from fresh GAC and has nothing to do at all with bond x,y or z.
4. GAC is one of many HLLE causes maybe.
Over a year I ago I posted this, maybe not here
Carbon dust and HLLE is not rumor. 99% of all HLLE is from a poor diet or to much carbon dust or a combo of the two. However, most HLLE IMHO by far is from poor diet, as we have reversed it many times by changing diet. And only certain fish seem to get HLLE from carbon dust. HM can also cause it.The voltage thing is pretty much a misunderstood myth. And Ozone is another possibility. From a past post of mine.
A couple of observations on this complex issue.
We are currently putting the finishing touches on a manuscript describing the dynamics of HLLES in ocean surgeons housed in water polished with carbon. We are aiming for the Journal of Aquatic Animal Health.
• Ed Noga’s group has proposed to talk about a HLLES as a depigmentation clinical sign instead of a syndrome…Corrales, J; Ullal, A; Noga, EJ Lateral line depigmentation (LLD) in channel catfish, Ictalurus punctatus (Rafinesque). Journal of Fish Diseases. Volume 32 Issue 8, Pages 705 – 712.
• It is important to note there are possibly two phenomenon happening which are being labeled HLLES.
o One phenomenon affects the lateral line which takes two forms.
o One affects the neuromasts within the lateral line-has been documented with heavy metal toxicity.
o One causes an erosive “dermatitis” also known as Chronic Erosive Dermatopathy. We have found this version with the use of activated carbon and ozone.
Baily, J E, Bretherton, M J, Gavine, FM, Ferguson, HW, and Turnbull, JF. 2005. The pathology of chronic erosive dermatopathy in Murray cod, Maccullochella peelii peelii (Mitchell) Journal of Fish Diseases 2005, 28, 3–12.
The second phenomenon is known as “epithelial thinning” which is caused by high levels of cortisol…ie stress (multifactorial). Ed Noga’s group describes this in…Udomkusonsri, P., E.J. Noga and N. Monteiro-Riviere. 2004. Pathogenesis of the Acute Ulceration Response (AUR) in hybrid striped bass. Diseases of Aquatic Organisms 61:199-213.
• Telling the difference….
o HLLES-Erosion starts at the pores and increases until they coalesce and the erosions blend to make a bigger ulcer.
o Thinning happens over a larger generalized area. Where the epithelium starts to become transparent and eventually thins to a point where an erosion takes place eventually resulting in an ulcer.
• We don’t know why the epithelial thinning and HLLES has a higher affinity for the facial region. We do know there is a significantly higher population of goblet cells within the facial and lateral line regions of ocean surgeons. We are currently looking at mitochondrial populations of the cells in these regions to see if they have a higher energy need and may be more susceptible to electron disruptions.
• Current controlled experiments using ocean surgeons:
o Coconut carbon has been repeatedly used at different main stream and side stream experiments. It causes very predictable HLLES in full stream as well as side stream which keeps the TOC below 0.5 ppm. Very little HLLES develops in the same side stream experiment where the flow is reduced allowing a 1.0 ppm TOC.
o HLLES develops in fish housed in water exposed to ozone but ORP of the environmental water at around 320 mV (no net oxidants compared to control systems).
o There have been two vitamin deletion studies with controls (Vit A and C) performed by the University of Florida. Vitamin A was negative. Vitamin C was equivocal and needs to be rerun.
o In-line UV did not cause it.
o In-line foam fractionation did not cause it but this experiment needs to be rerun.
o Metals-Application of carbon had no significant manipulation of metal concentration. No significant difference in aquarium tanks that had HLLES verses ones that did not.
HOWEVER…on open question is the speciation of metals available to the fish…One thing in common with ozone and carbon is the manipulation of DOCs. Carbon absorbing it until it the carbon is saturated and ozone chewing it up into smaller molecules. Is it possible that metals may be more toxic in these environment (i.e. toxic enough for these cells but not being overtly toxic) because they are not bound by the DOCs. This is a very complex question and is cost prohibitive to investigate.
• Carbon Dust-Our later carbon studies had 1 micro filters in-line (post carbon). Histopath did not show any carbon particles within the tissues. Another thought is there are plenty of silicates (diatoms) in the water which would be more affective source of irritants. Carbon dust would provide a large surface area for absorption but I am not convinced it acts as and irritant.
• Weight of fish per gallon…a ratio of 2.4 grams of fish/gallon (when the fish reach 30 grams and start to show breeding colors we average 6 fish/75 gallons) seem to keep most of the social stress at bay. We controlled for social structure to make sure this was not causing any HLLES signs.
• Healing of lesions during these experiments…Most of these experiments are a yes/no question. If using controls you can tell if a variable is causing the syndrome early in the HLLES process. At least in ocean surgeons, if you stop the experiment just when you start seeing HLLES and you do not have any complicating issues, the lesions heal fairly quickly so the euthanasia question should be need to be performed.
M. Andrew Stamper D.V.M., Dipl. A.C.Z.M.
Research Biologist/Clinical Veterinarian
Disney's Animal Programs and Environmental Initiatives
Walt Disney World Resorts
A new full version of this article will be out in a peer-reviewed article soon. But the issue is still the same as I say below on GAC.
I consider most of this testing so much gibberish in any publication until what is know what is causing HLLE exactly i.e, GAC dust is doing what to the LL Neuromast to cause HLLE. Meaning, for example, the dust is plugging up the Neuromasts just like Mojo gets a face pimple
Some guys with this last reef article on GAC have got guys running their GAC to the trash bin with "we have finally solved the HLLE issue it is GAC, so get RID of it."
I commend all of these researchers for their efforts but putting any blame on anything is meaningless until the cause is known. GAC or its dust is not a cause as of yet, as there is no clue as to how such GAC is doing anything. If one wants to blame GAC then fine but there are craps loads of different kinds of GAC, i.e., is it acid washed or not acid washed, what is the ash level, what is its Abrasion number ( can give more and finer dusts than others). Is it Lignite, Bitum, or Peat and what was the originate raw material of the GAC. Is it Steam Activated or Chemically Activated ? GAC, pretty much as most know, is one of my pet hobbies.
This GAC article reminds me of the old Ron Shimek article on sea-salts where everybody raced to change their salt with many ending up with serious issues.
This article did not change my mind on anything at all.
"If you put three groups of people in small apartments and make them live together, and put lignite activated carbon in one, granulated activated carbon in the other one, and no activated carbon in the third, and the group of people in the apartment with lignite carbon in it all get a cold, does that mean that lignite carbon causes colds, or that one person in that apartment happened to have a cold and spread it to everyone else? "
They only tested 3 tanks. On some recent remarks to the authors they never even considered or thought of the GAC issue is not the GAC but dust from the GAC and they never rinsed theirs. How many times I have posted to ALWAYS rinse the GAC well for fines/dust or any tapped gases in the pores.
I will add more of my thoguhts;
1. GAC-less tanks have/get HLLE
2. GAC tanks do not get HLLE always, i.e, I use to run 1 liter of Lignite GAC / 30 gals of net water 24 / 7, changed 1 / m for 20 years and never got HLLE.
3. IMHO it is a not a GAC thing / say.
.....a) To much GAC dust from improper rinsing of the GAC
.....b) The GAC is taking something out of the water affecting fish.
.....c) The GAC is binding something into the GAC dust that is affecting fish.
.....d) The GAC is taking something out of the water leaving something else behind affecting fish.
.....e) The GAC is leaving something in the water from fresh GAC and has nothing to do at all with bond x,y or z.
4. GAC is one of many HLLE causes maybe.
Over a year I ago I posted this, maybe not here
Carbon dust and HLLE is not rumor. 99% of all HLLE is from a poor diet or to much carbon dust or a combo of the two. However, most HLLE IMHO by far is from poor diet, as we have reversed it many times by changing diet. And only certain fish seem to get HLLE from carbon dust. HM can also cause it.The voltage thing is pretty much a misunderstood myth. And Ozone is another possibility. From a past post of mine.
A couple of observations on this complex issue.
We are currently putting the finishing touches on a manuscript describing the dynamics of HLLES in ocean surgeons housed in water polished with carbon. We are aiming for the Journal of Aquatic Animal Health.
• Ed Noga’s group has proposed to talk about a HLLES as a depigmentation clinical sign instead of a syndrome…Corrales, J; Ullal, A; Noga, EJ Lateral line depigmentation (LLD) in channel catfish, Ictalurus punctatus (Rafinesque). Journal of Fish Diseases. Volume 32 Issue 8, Pages 705 – 712.
• It is important to note there are possibly two phenomenon happening which are being labeled HLLES.
o One phenomenon affects the lateral line which takes two forms.
o One affects the neuromasts within the lateral line-has been documented with heavy metal toxicity.
o One causes an erosive “dermatitis” also known as Chronic Erosive Dermatopathy. We have found this version with the use of activated carbon and ozone.
Baily, J E, Bretherton, M J, Gavine, FM, Ferguson, HW, and Turnbull, JF. 2005. The pathology of chronic erosive dermatopathy in Murray cod, Maccullochella peelii peelii (Mitchell) Journal of Fish Diseases 2005, 28, 3–12.
The second phenomenon is known as “epithelial thinning” which is caused by high levels of cortisol…ie stress (multifactorial). Ed Noga’s group describes this in…Udomkusonsri, P., E.J. Noga and N. Monteiro-Riviere. 2004. Pathogenesis of the Acute Ulceration Response (AUR) in hybrid striped bass. Diseases of Aquatic Organisms 61:199-213.
• Telling the difference….
o HLLES-Erosion starts at the pores and increases until they coalesce and the erosions blend to make a bigger ulcer.
o Thinning happens over a larger generalized area. Where the epithelium starts to become transparent and eventually thins to a point where an erosion takes place eventually resulting in an ulcer.
• We don’t know why the epithelial thinning and HLLES has a higher affinity for the facial region. We do know there is a significantly higher population of goblet cells within the facial and lateral line regions of ocean surgeons. We are currently looking at mitochondrial populations of the cells in these regions to see if they have a higher energy need and may be more susceptible to electron disruptions.
• Current controlled experiments using ocean surgeons:
o Coconut carbon has been repeatedly used at different main stream and side stream experiments. It causes very predictable HLLES in full stream as well as side stream which keeps the TOC below 0.5 ppm. Very little HLLES develops in the same side stream experiment where the flow is reduced allowing a 1.0 ppm TOC.
o HLLES develops in fish housed in water exposed to ozone but ORP of the environmental water at around 320 mV (no net oxidants compared to control systems).
o There have been two vitamin deletion studies with controls (Vit A and C) performed by the University of Florida. Vitamin A was negative. Vitamin C was equivocal and needs to be rerun.
o In-line UV did not cause it.
o In-line foam fractionation did not cause it but this experiment needs to be rerun.
o Metals-Application of carbon had no significant manipulation of metal concentration. No significant difference in aquarium tanks that had HLLES verses ones that did not.
HOWEVER…on open question is the speciation of metals available to the fish…One thing in common with ozone and carbon is the manipulation of DOCs. Carbon absorbing it until it the carbon is saturated and ozone chewing it up into smaller molecules. Is it possible that metals may be more toxic in these environment (i.e. toxic enough for these cells but not being overtly toxic) because they are not bound by the DOCs. This is a very complex question and is cost prohibitive to investigate.
• Carbon Dust-Our later carbon studies had 1 micro filters in-line (post carbon). Histopath did not show any carbon particles within the tissues. Another thought is there are plenty of silicates (diatoms) in the water which would be more affective source of irritants. Carbon dust would provide a large surface area for absorption but I am not convinced it acts as and irritant.
• Weight of fish per gallon…a ratio of 2.4 grams of fish/gallon (when the fish reach 30 grams and start to show breeding colors we average 6 fish/75 gallons) seem to keep most of the social stress at bay. We controlled for social structure to make sure this was not causing any HLLES signs.
• Healing of lesions during these experiments…Most of these experiments are a yes/no question. If using controls you can tell if a variable is causing the syndrome early in the HLLES process. At least in ocean surgeons, if you stop the experiment just when you start seeing HLLES and you do not have any complicating issues, the lesions heal fairly quickly so the euthanasia question should be need to be performed.
M. Andrew Stamper D.V.M., Dipl. A.C.Z.M.
Research Biologist/Clinical Veterinarian
Disney's Animal Programs and Environmental Initiatives
Walt Disney World Resorts
A new full version of this article will be out in a peer-reviewed article soon. But the issue is still the same as I say below on GAC.
I consider most of this testing so much gibberish in any publication until what is know what is causing HLLE exactly i.e, GAC dust is doing what to the LL Neuromast to cause HLLE. Meaning, for example, the dust is plugging up the Neuromasts just like Mojo gets a face pimple
Some guys with this last reef article on GAC have got guys running their GAC to the trash bin with "we have finally solved the HLLE issue it is GAC, so get RID of it." I commend all of these researchers for their efforts but putting any blame on anything is meaningless until the cause is known. GAC or its dust is not a cause as of yet, as there is no clue as to how such GAC is doing anything. If one wants to blame GAC then fine but there are craps loads of different kinds of GAC, i.e., is it acid washed or not acid washed, what is the ash level, what is its Abrasion number ( can give more and finer dusts than others). Is it Lignite, Bitum, or Peat and what was the originate raw material of the GAC. Is it Steam Activated or Chemically Activated ? GAC, pretty much as most know, is one of my pet hobbies.
This GAC article reminds me of the old Ron Shimek article on sea-salts where everybody raced to change their salt with many ending up with serious issues.
This article did not change my mind on anything at all.
Maxx
Staff Housemonkey
- Joined
- Jul 31, 2003
- Messages
- 2,935
I've used GAC in the past for several years with no ill effects. I always rinsed it well prior to use and had Tangs in the tank. No HLLE. I dont run it now, but its not fear of HLLE that caused me to stop using it.
Thanks for the insight Boomer.
Nick
Thanks for the insight Boomer.
Nick
NC2WA
Well-known member
Boomer,
I love the honest no-hold bars answers given.
I love the honest no-hold bars answers given.
