HLLE help

[reedman]

Steve,

Help me out here. I have 3 fish showing signs of HLLE and I cannot find a source cause. I have one majestic angel, one bicolor blenny, and one scopus tang all showing signs. The double saddleback butterfly and clowns are showing no signs.

Currently I feed purple algae, green algae, nori, blender mush, mysis, krill, ocean nutrition formula I (I soak the algae, blender mush and mysis in Seaweed Soak or Fish Food Soak by H2O Life Aquarium Foods or selco). I even bought some gracilaria to feed them to see if it was a nutritional deficiency. I do 15-20% water changes every week or two. Calcium is maintained at 420, Alk is in the high 8's to 9 dKh, salinity at 1.023-1.024, PH is right around 8.0.

I have tried to research this and find all that I can to find what I can do, but I am now at a loss.

Any ideas on what I can do to help improve the health of my fish???

On a side note my clowns have been breeding off an on throughout this.

Thanks for any help you can offer.

 

[Scooterman]

I'm not a fish expert but setting up a hospital tank & slowly lowering the salinity may ease things up for them some, make sure to have hiding places. I see you feed well, have you tried to soak in Kent's garlic extreme? I'm guessing your seeing them eating so that is a good sign.

http://animal-world.com/encyclo/fresh/information/Diseases.htm

http://www.nosickfish.com/diseases.php

http://saltaquarium.about.com/cs/headlledisease/a/aa040901.htm

http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/html/hlle.html

 

[reedman]

Hey Scoot, thanks for the ideas. There is no issue with the fish eating...they are all pigs. I can lower the salinity in the main tank since it is a FO tank now (all corals are toast from some unknown pest). What salinity do you suggest lowering to?

 

[Ed Hahn]

Do you think the clowns are chasing the other fish that come close to nesting area too much?

 

[reedman]

Hey Ed. No, not really. They have always been in the location they are in and have had it to themselves. I haven't observed any stressors in the tank, which was my second thought after nutrition.

 

[Ed Hahn]

No temp swings, No recent relocation of land scape, no aggressive crabs, No broken bulbs, no stray current or noises? I still like New Life Spectrum you know, lol.

 

[thumperss]

hille is common in all those fish i do know in fact that calurpa can have a reverse effect of hille.
i will try to find the the page i read that in.
ok
Brandon

 

[thumperss]

hear is another way to help.

http://www.ecosystemaquarium.com/html/miracle.html

Brandon

 

[Ed Hahn]

http://www.newlife.ipbhost.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=90

I believe like you said Reed that diet plays a very important part of game. A blockage, etc. I know no more than you Buddy(saying this to Reed as a friend). I am guessing. I hope you figure this out soon.

 

[thumperss]

i did not say i know everythang or more then you. i was just trying to help. the reason i said caulerpa is becouse useing flake food and other foods get missed by fish and can cause bad spikes in your water. now caulerpa dose not wast away and can be eaten by his herbivore fish only and not race or fight for there food.
Brandon

 

[-=dieseldave=-]

My guess and only a guess is that the HLLE fish have an internal parasite robing them of nutrition do you have any clear pictures of the fish with HLLE? The belly region it fat, thin, normal?

PS. I have some of your corals, I will donate frags of them back to you when your ready for them.

 

[thumperss]

Head and lateral line erosion (HLLE) is a horribly disfiguring disease of marine tropical fishes that causes ulcerations of the lateral line and head pores of fishes. Although many species of fish have been observed to have this condition, surgeon fish and angelfish are most often affected, and within these families particular species seem to be more susceptible. This disease has yet to be reported in fishes in the wild, but seems commonplace in both home and public aquariums.

Brandon

who were you talking to about frags

 

[-=dieseldave=-]

"who were you talking to about frags"
This was for Reed

 

[Scooterman]

Being you have three fish with this seems like it could be something that can be cured, I was reading that even with regular wc's they recommend large volume wc's, basically flush the tank in a few giant changes. I would still research this more & get a few experts on this first & see if it can be determined if it is a parasite or something that is treatable, being only a FO at this time you may be able to do the treatments in your main display. I would think that whatever the treatment may be, you would see results over days or weeks not a fast cure.

http://www.fishyfarmacy.com/fish_diseases/skin_disorders.html

I found this one here so again research & expert help is your best chance IMO.

 

[leebca]

Possible causes for lateral line erosion in order of what I think is most likely:
Vitamin deficiency (A and/or C); Poor Nutrition
Chronic Stress
Poor water quality (including high levels of dissolved organic matter and/or nitrate)
Activated carbon (either removing something the fish need or the dust clogging the pores on the fish)
Retrovirus
Hexamita
Amyloodinium-like dinoflagellate
Stray Voltage (is your system grounded properly?) [the article below disagrees with this one]

See this article for more info on MHLLE:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/sp/index.htm

I keep repeating this, but I'll write it again. . .A fish eating like a pig could be the symptom of a fish starving to death. Why is it that 'people' think that an animal that overeats is healthy? Are fat people healthy? Are people who eat voraciously everything in site, healthy? :evil:

More times than not a fish 'eating like a pig' is looking for proper nutrition. :idea: Its not getting all the nutrients it needs. I have 36 years keeping marine fish, backing up this statement. Until I began making my own and choosing the right kinds of foods, my fish would eat like pigs too. Now, they haven't since my last go around with a starving tang (see: http://www.reefland.com/forum/marin...-does-your-fish-eat-like-pig-not-so-good.html).

Nutrition is the first concern. I keep a lot of Tangs, Butterflyfishes, and Angelfishes. No MHLLE (or HLLE if you prefer). Check down the list to make sure the tank isn't affected/infected by one of the other general causes.

Good luck!

 

[reedman]

My guess and only a guess is that the HLLE fish have an internal parasite robing them of nutrition do you have any clear pictures of the fish with HLLE? The belly region it fat, thin, normal?

PS. I have some of your corals, I will donate frags of them back to you when your ready for them.

Hey Dave,

Bellies are fat so I don't suspect intestinal parasites...though that is an interesting theory. I will try to post pics tonight after work (it aint pretty).

PS: thanks for the offer of the corals....some day I will return to the hobby

 

[reedman]

Possible causes for lateral line erosion in order of what I think is most likely:
Vitamin deficiency (A and/or C); Poor Nutrition
Chronic Stress
Poor water quality (including high levels of dissolved organic matter and/or nitrate)
Activated carbon (either removing something the fish need or the dust clogging the pores on the fish)
Retrovirus
Hexamita
Amyloodinium-like dinoflagellate
Stray Voltage (is your system grounded properly?) [the article below disagrees with this one]

I have read all of this and have checked. I tried to address most of this with the background I posted in the first post. Don't get me wrong I appreciate the help, but I think we can rule out nutrition since I feed a wide variety of foods, make my own mush, and add vitamins...I don't know what more I can do there. If you have ideas on food changes please let me know specifically what you suggest.

Stress is doubtful since there really isn't territorial disputes, temp is stable, lighting is on timers, and tank is monitored with a aqqucontroller to ensure stability.

Water quality was my suspicion so I stepped up the water changes and have not seen an improvement (over 4 months now).

Carbon....well, yes I run about 2/3 cup of carbon. I will be removing that this weekend. We'll know soon enough on that one

System is grounded

The rest I don't know so I will have to investigate what they are.

See this article for more info on MHLLE:
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-06/sp/index.htm

Great article. I have read that several times trying to find a root cause.

I keep repeating this, but I'll write it again. . .A fish eating like a pig could be the symptom of a fish starving to death. Why is it that 'people' think that an animal that overeats is healthy? Are fat people healthy? Are people who eat voraciously everything in site, healthy? :evil:

More times than not a fish 'eating like a pig' is looking for proper nutrition. :idea: Its not getting all the nutrients it needs. I have 36 years keeping marine fish, backing up this statement. Until I began making my own and choosing the right kinds of foods, my fish would eat like pigs too. Now, they haven't since my last go around with a starving tang (see: http://www.reefland.com/forum/marine...t-so-good.html).

Nutrition is the first concern. I keep a lot of Tangs, Butterflyfishes, and Angelfishes. No MHLLE (or HLLE if you prefer). Check down the list to make sure the tank isn't affected/infected by one of the other general causes.

Good luck!

The fish are eating as much as I provide them. They have full bodies and look healthy (other than the erosion of the head - and fins on the blenny and tang). It is easier to say they are eating like pigs than to explain that they are eating what I give them....people can see "eating like pigs" better than "eating healthy".

Thanks for the good luck....I need it

-Reed

 

[leebca]

Not convinced about the nutrition yet. I'll be happy to go over your foods, if you want. This requires listing all foods (name brands, foods, constituents in your mush, additives, etc.) and frequency of feedings.

Not convinced of the stress yet. If you want I can review that. For this I'll need tank dimension and capacity in gallons. System information (circulation, biological filtration, live rock (weight), any chemical filters, refugium, sump, etc.), and lastly a complete list of all marine life inhabitants greater than the size of a pea.

Water changes cure a variety of wrongs but only if the water is good to begin with. Have you tested your source water? What source water do you use? Have you run a complete set of water tests (ammonia, nitrite, etc.) on the water? Try the tests for poisons (ammonia and nitrite) one hour after a big feeding.

Happy to help!

 

[reedman]

Not convinced about the nutrition yet. I'll be happy to go over your foods, if you want. This requires listing all foods (name brands, foods, constituents in your mush, additives, etc.) and frequency of feedings.

I will PM you what I feed to get your input. I am always up for someone else's opinion

Not convinced of the stress yet. If you want I can review that. For this I'll need tank dimension and capacity in gallons. System information (circulation, biological filtration, live rock (weight), any chemical filters, refugium, sump, etc.), and lastly a complete list of all marine life inhabitants greater than the size of a pea.

Again, I will PM to get your input. Thanks!

Water changes cure a variety of wrongs but only if the water is good to begin with. Have you tested your source water? What source water do you use? Have you run a complete set of water tests (ammonia, nitrite, etc.) on the water? Try the tests for poisons (ammonia and nitrite) one hour after a big feeding.

Happy to help!

Water is pretty good in our area to begin with, but i run it through a 4 stage RO/DI and the TDS is around 10ppm. I use IO salt and mix for 3-7 days prior to adding to the tank. Water temp is same as tank. I have not tested any of the items you listed since I was keeping freshwater (except in my QT where I monitor amonia and nitrite. I will check that. Good thought.

 

[leebca]

Based upon information you provided in your PM, I think the nutrition can be improved and stress reduced. I have PMed details.