HLLE help

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ok folks....here's my plan based on Lee's advice and some more reading online:

  • new batch of blender mush tailored better to the nutritional needs of the fish
  • remove clowns to a tank of their own to remove some stress and possibly remove scopus tang (to some lucky persons tank)
  • improve feeding regimine
  • remove carbon
  • look into adding some trace elements to improve conditions in tank
  • thinking about a large scale water change (50% or so) to level set the tank
I'll keep everyone posted on what happens. Thank you to all who have offered help...I appreciate it very much!

-Reed
 
I have been wondering about the use of carbon. WHY REMOVE CARBON? I know nothing, that is why I am asking. :)
 
There are 2 reasons that I know of:

1) carbon strips out trace elements that the fish need. If they are not reintroduced through dosing then there is a deficiency.

2) the fines (carbon dust) can cause irritations to the fish and allow an opportunity for bacterial infections.

Lee might be able to shed more light on this topic.
 
Perfect response reedman. :cool:

New carbon isn't all that much of a problem as far as effects on minor elements. When carbon has fairly well absorbed the large organic molecules, the carbon and carbon-organics start attracting more and more of the minor elements. Some useful regiments for carbon use has been to use it for 7 days; discard it; leave tank without carbon for 14 days; use carbon for 7 days; discard it; etc.
 
I had a yellow tang with MHLLE. Not the fish in the picture! At the time I knew even less than I know now. The fish lived with two very agressive damsels one blue and one black. I think besides the high nitrates it was mostly about stress. The fish always was having to defend itself. I had my first Tang for over 5 years but I am sorry I didn't know then what i now now.

So my .02 is stress is a huge factor.
 
OK, Here is what Lee sent to me in a PM (He has asked that I share the info - which I agree with - to that others can benefit):
Reed,

There are some holes/gaps in the feeding. The soaks are not as good as encapsulating the vitamins and fats. When you put the soaked algae into the aquarium, the soaked-up supplements dissolve into the aquarium water in a minute to three. After that, the fish are just eating regular algae and not getting the supplements.

Buy different algae brands (Not just Julian) and rotate them. The different colors are good choices for these fishes, although a Yellow and/or Brown should be accepted by them now and then, too. The reason for the brand rotation is that not all algae is collected and processed the same. The variety will help provide different and varying quantities of trace elements and nutrients.

Your mush is deficient, sorry. Not enough whole foods. Have you read the stickies in Reef Frontiers? Here is an updated post with an attachment Table to make it easier: http://www.reefland.com/forum/marine...nutrition.html

I would suggest the following changes to the mush:
Skip the whole shrimp -- replace with whole sea krill (1/2 inch long size, frozen fish food).
Add up to 1% by weight Spirulina powder
Skip the nori, mussels, and cod
Rinse all in RO/DI or distilled water
Add vitamins and supplements to mush in blender
The first two mush preps should contain extra Vitamins A and stabilized Vitamin C
I would add a binder (agar agar) and gel the mush together and feed in small, bite-sized pieces once a day.

Now, the above food has encapsulated supplements and the vitamins you think the fish are getting are now for sure ingesting them.

1 feeding a day of algae on clip
1 feeding a day of the mush to all fish
1 feeding a day of frozen supplemented brine shrimp, mysid shrimp, or plankton.
1 feeding a month of pellet
1 feeding a month of flake
5 feedings a month of the frozen variety foods that do not contain land products -- These can replace the frozen supplemented b.s., mysid, feedings.

The algae on a clip feeding can be just after the mush feeding or just after the frozen feeding -- that is, you don't need to feed 3 times a day.

The bio-load is maxed out. I'd use snails instead of hermit crabs, but that's just me. It's just the Tang shouldn't be there. That is a source of stress. This is space stress and can lead to a variety of issues. Stressors are complicated and aquarists don't really see the results of them all, but they take their toll on reduced life and unhealthy fish and the HLLE is the sign of reduced health. If the Percs are mated, then they want more space and are space stressed too.

Lastly, the aquarium is getting old. I would perform some trace element additions to the water in between water changes, as recommended in the above link I provided until at least the fish return to their natural appearance.

I think the main HLLE fostering stressor is nutrition. You've not done a bad job, just perhaps not as thorough at getting the supplements into the fish. There are some gelled frozen formulas you can use as the frozen alternatives, but if your mush is up to snuff, it should be a daily feed along with some algae. Vary the other feeding with encapsulated and gelled and whole frozen products.

The fish will not likely recover from the HLLE even if you take the above nutritional steps, until the space stress has been addressed, IMO.

Hope this helps.

LEE
 
O.K. I will address one thing at a time. I do not have any fish that are sick right now and I would like to keep it that way.

Thank you so much for sharing this information.
 
So Lee,
I have a few more questions. Where can one find "stabilized Vitamin C"? Is this available at the local drug store or is this a specialty item ordered from pet suppliers? Also on the vitamin A, I assume I can just pick up some for human consumption and add it into the batch? any recommendations on how much to add?
 
Avoid human vitamins. Human vitamins were formulated to be consumed by (I know, I know :p ) humans. They are for human digestive systems at human pH and intestinal digestive tracts. In saltwater they may take on different tertiary (3rd-level) molecular structures or even be partially denatured.

The best vitamins are those formulated from and for marine life. Those vitamins will list their contents and indicate if the Vitamin C is stabilized. If it doesn't say 'stabilized' then assume it isn't. There are even some specialized stabilized Vitamin C additives now available for marine fishes, unfortunately though, mis-labeled as some sort of cure-all or protection from diseases. Read the label closely and you'll find the main ingredient is stabilized Vitamin C. :)

The link to fish feeding lists some of the supplements derived from sea creatures for marine fishes. Be thankful you aren't trying to properly nourish your fish 30 years ago and had only human vitamins (of 30 years ago) to choose from!

The quantity of marine fish supplements to put into an encapsulated food is the same quantity recommended that food be soaked in. In the case of Vita Chem I use about 2 oz per pound of final food. Every batch I make I use a different vitamin supplement--rotating them.
 
hi Reed,

i bought this King Angelfish that's starving & infected with HLLE from LFS 2 months ago.

patch just above the eye was the cause of net catching according to LFS
 
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i feed it frozen mysis shrimp soak with Kent Marine Zoe & Zoecon daily in the evening and some pallets in the morning b4 i go to work

my tank is a FOT and continuously using GAC

here it is 2 months later, it shows a lot of improvement. the line erosion has totally disappeared
 
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Alright....back on topic here

I would like to get peoples input on where they are getting various ingredients for their foods (home made mush).

I get the following:
frozen krilll, vitamins/supplements (selco, GVH, etc.) - pet shop
scallops, clams - grocery store
agar agar - asian grocery store

still looking for a source of spirulina powder (can you get this at a health food store?)

other ingredients that people use??? and where you get them??
 

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