Hydrogen Peroxide, Chlorine & ORP

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NaH2O

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Jan 25, 2004
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I was in a short discussion today about ozone, and "poor man's ozone". I've read Randy's article on ORP, and understand that H2O2 and Cl2 are oxidizers. What was presented to me, was the idea of using bleach in the reef aquarium instead of using ozone. I mentioned that hydrogen peroxide could probably be used in the same way, as long as ORP was measured (with either H2O2 or Cl2). Can anyone explain the bad effects of adding either of these to the aquarium, if a person monitors ORP? Has anyone here ever tried using either hydrogen peroxide or bleach in their aquarium?
 
OK did a quick google search and found that its great for killing algae, probley not what we want with our zooanthee but that is just my thought and I am not a chemist. I would link it, but I am computer stupid and can barely use this one. Steve
 
Bleach !!! Who had that dumb idea ?? Why do you think we add dechlor to a tank, to get rid of the bleach, ClO-, hypochlorite. Bleach is toxic. It is added to water to kill things. That is what chlorinated water is "bleach",ClO-, pH 12.8

H2O2 is more of a "poor mans " O3. H2O2 is one of the most powerful oxidizers known -- stronger than chlorine, chlorine dioxide, and potassium permanganate. And through catalysis, H2O2 can be converted into hydroxyl radicals (.OH) with reactivity second only to fluorine. It also decomposes in the presence of numerous catalysts, e.g., most metals, acids, or oxidizable organics Its ORP in mV would be less than ozone, meaning O3 is higher than E° = -1.78 V (see below)

In short
H2O2 ( decomposes ) ---> H2O + (1/2) O2. or
2 H2O2 ----> 2 H2O + O2

Technically it is really
H2O2 (aq) = H+ + O2H-
2 H2O(l) = H2O2(aq) + 2 H+(aq) + 2e- E° = -1.78 V

So in water it will produce O2 and a weak acid

Problems is that it can really raise the O2 if you don't know what you are doing. We use to use 3% topical hydrogen peroxide to increase O2 levels for emergence power failures. For years there were and maybe still available "poor mans" unit. These consist of 30 % H2O2 and a clay pot. The pot acted as a catalytic causing a controlled rate of O2 being released into the aquarium. They were put out out by Aquarium Products. I use to play with one :D

You would need more than a ORP controller for a tank. As I would want to watch O2 levels. Also in long time application it would lower pH so you would have to watch that also. All of the H2O2 does not break down oftenc and is somewhat stable in water.

From my old friend Albert Thiel ( I feel the same way)

Hydrogen Peroxide :

An absolute no for reef tanks. It can quickly raise the oxygen content of the water, but it can also do so much damage so quickly, that we ask you to not use it at all. Wilkens and Hueckstedt have both described methods of adding it safely. Experience shows, however, that hobbyists usually overdose, and that all corals and invertebrates greatly suffer, to the point where they will be lost.


If you must use hydrogen peroxide, you should do so only after you have consulted with someone who has done so before you, and has experience with strengths and dosages. I know of no product in the hobby using hydrogen peroxide safely as an additive.

H202 Chemistry
http://www.h2o2.com/
 
Boomer said:
Bleach !!! Who had that dumb idea ?? Why do you think we add dechlor to a tank, to get rid of the bleach, ClO-, hypochlorite. Bleach is toxic. It is added to water to kill things. That is what chlorinated water is "bleach",ClO-, pH 12.8

LOL, Boomer! I'm not quite sure if you are for or against bleach ;) :lol:. I do know of a reefer around here that uses or has used it in the past...not sure if he still does. That's how we got in the conversation. You are right, though, about adding a dechlorinator, so it doesn't make sense as to why it would be dosed in the first place.

Thanks for the info on H2O2. I don't think I'll be putting it in my tank at any point.....unless it gets a cut that needs to be cleaned out ;) lolol.
 
I feel out of my chair when I saw that. I was thinkin' hhmmm I wonder what Nikki is smoking today :D Not only that, the dechlor, but that poor RO/DI doing all that work on tap water to just dump bleach back in.....Could you use bleach to raise and control the redox, yes. I do to know of anyone that has or would even want to. If I ran this by Randy on our chem forum he would band me forever :lol: Now you would have chlorine bleach and bromine bleach in the tank how wonderful :D Then of coruse there would be that really nice smell in the house..........honey........ isn't the swimming pool outside why does it stink in here like the pool .......
 
Boomer said:
I feel out of my chair when I saw that. I was thinkin' hhmmm I wonder what Nikki is smoking today :D

ROFL - glad I can keep you on your toes! :lol: I'm sure if I ever meet you and Randy together, you'll poke him and whisper "she's the one that asked about the bleach" and have a little chuckle :lol: ;).

Thanks for all the info you provide!
 
Believe it or not, I've seen a thread on a forum (It's a freshwater forum but they also advocate that tap water is safe to use in saltwater tanks as well.) that is trying to justify not using chlorine neutralizing agents when using tap water in an aquarium by stating the "benefits" of increase ORP in the tank. One of them even claimed that adding chlorine to the tank would give a fish a similar experience as "exfoliating our skin". They are even attempting to establish "safe levels" of chlorine in an aquarium since they figure that the DOM will react with the chlorine long before it affects the fish or the bacteria in the tank!

I couldn't believe that entire thread and how serious people are trying to prove it so they wont feel bad about pooring tap water directly into their tanks, after all the fish didn't die immediately or jump out of the tank screaming "it burns, it burns!" soit can't be harmful!
 
Welcome Cougra, I was born in Toronto and so was my wife she lived north of there in Warsaw for 20 years :)
 
Yeah, you have to watch out what you read. There is always someone out there claiming that they get excellent results from weird methods. First thing to keep in mind is that some people define "excellent results" differently than others...

Some people will show you a stunning tank that has no algae and huge coral and say it's their pride and joy but what you don't know is that they just stocked it and everything could be gone in a month.

There is a guy who runs an LFS (not the one I worked at) who says that the way to dose kalkwasser is to dump it in til it forms a snow, that's how you know you are done-then do it again every day like that; that you can cut your marine salt with road salt if you are broke; that you dose copper every day until you don't see any more disease and then your fish are cured or dead-even if it's chelated copper which accumulates; that you should always have meds and/or potassium permangenate in freshwater tanks as a preventive measure; that a bucket of vodka is the best way to euthenize a fish humanely... Also some people will tell you something weird assuming you will know it's a joke and not at all intending you to actually do because it defies common sense... or they could be plain perverse and mean-this type is more likely to be found contributing anonymously via the internet than face to face and local.

That said, you can get the very difficult cardinal tetra to spawn with a cup of black coffee dumped into the tank. Noone knows why. A friend who had the most picture perfect stunning plant tanks I have seen either in real life or in print (beat Takashi Amano even) He drained his tanks 50% every week and refilled with the garden hose with ice cold tap water and no chlorine neutralizer. Fish spawned, one of his plants was purple, it was stunning for years. Then he started doing it right and they fell apart. He had the best water clarity... but that was freshwater.

I have read a lot of rationales for doing extreme things, most of which center around reducing phosphate and nitrate and increasing clarity. Water changes will also do this and are a whole lot more predictable/safer plus will replenish trace elements and remove hostile inverts' chemicals. Live rock helps with nitrate, refugiums with the right kinds of macros, kalk works great if used properly and is dirt cheap... Personally I couldn't stand to lose the livestock I have based on someone else's lucky ability to bend the rules for a time. Neither emotionally nor financially, it's just not worth it. I don't do anything weird other than overfeed and over stock and have zero phosphate and 10 ppm nitrate in my main reef which to me is fine.

If you want to experiment get a 10 gallon nano and a couple damsels and put some frags like kenya tree, Monti digitata, mushrooms, and majanos. See what happens with very well thought out and documented experiments. If after a long period it consistently works then try adding a tougher species. Keep the main tank traditional til the experiment is done. I would want to know with any high risk process that it is well understood, manageable, and that I will not slack and burn my tank in the process... I like to use methods that leave a margin for error because some days I am just not the most reliable person, like if my back goes out or I get a migraine.

Good luck! Experiments are fun, I just don't like to do them on my most valued specimens :)

Kate
 
Electrokate said:
Yeah, you have to watch out what you read. There is always someone out there claiming that they get excellent results from weird methods. First thing to keep in mind is that some people define "excellent results" differently than others...

Some people will show you a stunning tank that has no algae and huge coral and say it's their pride and joy but what you don't know is that they just stocked it and everything could be gone in a month.

There is a guy who runs an LFS (not the one I worked at) who says that the way to dose kalkwasser is to dump it in til it forms a snow, that's how you know you are done-then do it again every day like that; that you can cut your marine salt with road salt if you are broke; that you dose copper every day until you don't see any more disease and then your fish are cured or dead-even if it's chelated copper which accumulates; that you should always have meds and/or potassium permangenate in freshwater tanks as a preventive measure; that a bucket of vodka is the best way to euthenize a fish humanely... Also some people will tell you something weird assuming you will know it's a joke and not at all intending you to actually do because it defies common sense... or they could be plain perverse and mean-this type is more likely to be found contributing anonymously via the internet than face to face and local.

That said, you can get the very difficult cardinal tetra to spawn with a cup of black coffee dumped into the tank. Noone knows why. A friend who had the most picture perfect stunning plant tanks I have seen either in real life or in print (beat Takashi Amano even) He drained his tanks 50% every week and refilled with the garden hose with ice cold tap water and no chlorine neutralizer. Fish spawned, one of his plants was purple, it was stunning for years. Then he started doing it right and they fell apart. He had the best water clarity... but that was freshwater.

I have read a lot of rationales for doing extreme things, most of which center around reducing phosphate and nitrate and increasing clarity. Water changes will also do this and are a whole lot more predictable/safer plus will replenish trace elements and remove hostile inverts' chemicals. Live rock helps with nitrate, refugiums with the right kinds of macros, kalk works great if used properly and is dirt cheap... Personally I couldn't stand to lose the livestock I have based on someone else's lucky ability to bend the rules for a time. Neither emotionally nor financially, it's just not worth it. I don't do anything weird other than overfeed and over stock and have zero phosphate and 10 ppm nitrate in my main reef which to me is fine.

If you want to experiment get a 10 gallon nano and a couple damsels and put some frags like kenya tree, Monti digitata, mushrooms, and majanos. See what happens with very well thought out and documented experiments. If after a long period it consistently works then try adding a tougher species. Keep the main tank traditional til the experiment is done. I would want to know with any high risk process that it is well understood, manageable, and that I will not slack and burn my tank in the process... I like to use methods that leave a margin for error because some days I am just not the most reliable person, like if my back goes out or I get a migraine.

Good luck! Experiments are fun, I just don't like to do them on my most valued specimens :)

Kate
I'd be purple too if I was soaking in ice cold water!!!! :)

Anne
 
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