Hypo ineffective - Marine Itch or something else?

[Semillon]

I was referred to this forum suggesting it is the best place to go for disease/infection diagnosis...

We have a purple tang who has at least two serious health problems, see pictures below:

It seems pretty obvious that he has head/lateral line erosion - I beleive this is likely to be caused by whatever other infection or paracite is, so for the time being we are just being sure to feed a wide variety of foods (different colours of sea veggies, mysis shrimp and NLS pellets).

At first I beleived that he was infected with marine itch / whitespot, however a prolonged (8 week) hyposalinity treatment has not been helpful. I did make a couple of mistakes with the hypo treatment:
1) Lowered the salinity over 5 days rather than 2
2) Lowered the salinity initially only to 1.012 rather than 1.009 due to the refractometer being calibrated for sea water levels, not hyposaline levels

So now I am at a bit of a loss, it could have been that I stuffed up the hypo treatment, the paracite may have been/become resistant to the hypo treatment, it may be another disease/infection/paracite all together - though I have not found any photos that look exactly like the symptoms on this particular tang.

There are two ocellaris clownfish, one lawnmower blenny and one scribbled rabbitfish in the QT tank, all of which are spot/symptom free.

Aside from the white spots (approx 1-2mm in diameter) on the tang and HLLE, other symptoms have included periodic loss of appetite, breathing rate above 150/min, difficulty tearing/swallowing nori, periodic lethargy and periodic bouts of uncoordination.

Can anyone definitely identify the problem here? Any guidance would be most appreciated.

 

[Krish]

Here's a bump back to the top for you. Never had a fish with this particular issue so can't really add much first hand info. Hopefully soon someone, if not Lee, will chime in with some insight/advice.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[returnofsid]

I'm thinking that you're dealing with Lymphocystis, as apposed to Ich. Lymphocystis is a virus with really no known cure. The best options are to give the fish the best possible water quality and food, and hope it clears itself up. Sometimes it takes weeks to clear up, other times, it takes months. It's usually not fatal, though it can be. You'll want to watch for secondary infections, and treat those, if they pop up. I recently went through this, with a small Kole Tang. Unfortunately, I can't tell you it went well, as the darned thing jumped. Well, we assume it jumped, as we never found it, outside or inside the tank, but we have a cat, that may have found it.

 

[leebca]

Thanks for the photos. Just need some additional information.

I'd like a better bit of info regarding the hypo attempt you made. The "8 weeks in hypo" is not of importance, it is whether the spots went away during the treatment, or not. Did the spots ever go away totally? For how long did you not see any spots on the fish? Were their spots on the other fishes, which are now gone as you indicated? I'd like to know about the coming and going of the spots on this and all the fishes, and I'd like to know if the spots on this fish have come and gone/changed location or remained approximately the same? I'd like to know if they have increased in numbers. Lastly, tell me more about this fish -- how long have you had it and did it go through quarantine originally when you acquired it? Was it ever spot free?

If the spots remained during hypo, then this isn't Marine Ich.

Of the two deviations you pointed out, only 2) I would hold to be of any importance. Answering the above questions would help determine if this second issue had any impact on the attempt at treatment.

There is the complication of possible MHLLE as you suspect and that would not be too unusual with the stress the fish is now under. I wouldn't rule out a viral infection, but Lymphocystis usually doesn't affect breathing, since it doesn't affect the gills. If you'll clarify the treatment it went through and the spot issues by answering the above questions, it may point to a likely better diagnosis. Thanks.

 

[Semillon]

Thanks for the reply Lee, in answer to your questions:

The spots never went away totally, since the spots appeared on the purple tang, they have never completely cleared up, at one stage there appeared to be one spot on the fin of our scribbled rabbitfish, there have never been any visible symptoms on the pair of ocellaris clownfish nor the lownmower blenny tankmates.

During the hypo timeline, the purple tang initially had 6-8 spots, this remained essentially unchanged over the first 3-4 weeks with the SG at 1.012, after I dropped the SG to 1.009 initially the spots on the purple tang appeared to be clearing up (but did not completely go away), however then they came back more numerous than ever (12+ spots) and in new locations on his body, at this stage he also lost his appetite and coordination and I decided it would be best to start raising the SG in preparation for a different approach. It is now one week later and the purple tang has the most spots I have seen to date, however he is still eating pellets while basically ignoring nori.

We have had the fish around 9 months, he was not initially quarantined (yes I know, lesson learned) however did not show any signs of disease in our display tank. Unfortunately after going on holiday we experienced a tank crash, the PT was one of the few survivors. He spent time in a friends QT tank before we were able to set our previous display tank (250L) back up as a QT tank for our new/larger system.

So in summary, the spots remained in hypo and have come/gone from various locations on the fish. At one stage in his life he was completely spot free.

 

[Semillon]

Small update: One of the spots on his side, between 1-2mm in diameter, has a white thread around 1mm long hanging off - it looks somewhat like the white lump that was there as burst or been torn and part is hanging off.

There are no other visible threads.

 

[Semillon]

On the off chance it may be helpful, I just took a short video:


You can also see him in this video of the tank before it crashed:

 

[leebca]

Thanks for the additional information and for the video. It seems like the Scribbled (Siganus doliatus) was an additon after the crash. It also seems like the Scribbled is bullying the Tang. This may be general, since most healthy fish will pick on a sick fish (Nature's way of conserving resources for those that are fit) or it may not. My personal experience with Scribbled is that they are bullies as they mature. They are not the 'violent kind' of bully, but very subtle. Generally, the larger ones (and they DO grow to be very large in captivity) are not good fishes to put in with other Tangs or Rabbitfishes, and fishes of that family.

The Tang has a separate problem and must be separated from all the other fishes, in a proper quarantine tank (one wtihout rocks, corals, substrate, etc.). If it were may fish, I would try to save it, but that is mostly because I have all the medications and equipment needed to do so. You need to first decide if the treatment is what you are willing to do. If not, euthanize the fish immediately.

I cannot tell you the kind of pathogen the fish has without microscopic examination, however the 'group' of such pathogens are defeated by a dual copper and formalin treatment. You will need these medications AND the equipment they require to use them: Cupramine, Formalin, and a systemic antibiotic (my choice is Maracyn Two for Saltwater fishes, although the formula for Freshwater is okay, too). The three work together and are successful, but if you can only do two of them, there is still a chance of success; if you can only do one of them, forget it.

In a QT the fish will be treated with Cupramine and the antibiotic (at the same time, following medication instructions). While undergoing that treatment, the fish will be removed from the QT every other day and given a Formalin bath untl the fish has had a total of 4 such baths. The Formalin bath instructions are here: http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/f15/formalin-treatment-marine-fishes-38818/

I note the fish's energy reserve (fat) is low. That is to be expected under these circumstances. This gives a low chance the fish will survive through the above treatment. Feed the fish whatever it will eat, but when the fish recovers, please stop feeding pellet and flake foods. Read through these posts:
Different Marine Fish Food Forms
and
Fish Health Through Proper Nutrition

If I were you, I'd probably be wondering if the other fishes are infected. Most likely they are, but not displaying. As long as they don't display, all is well. The pathogen has gotten into your system, but is usually fended off by fish that are healthy, low stressed and being fed properly. I would immediately seek a better diet. I don't know how much macro algae you feed, but this is another good read on that subject:
http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/f15/how-feed-macro-alage-marine-fishes-41649/

Thank you for the information and for the photos and videos. All were helpful. I appreciate it that you have done all this. I wish more posters were as thorough, forthcoming, and cooperative. I only wish I had better news.

Don't hesitate to ask if you have questions or concerns I haven't addressed.

 

[Semillon]

Thanks Lee.

Your comments on the rabbitfish are noted and welcome. Unfortunately my research prior to obtaining him from a fellow reefer indicated that he would be peaceful except with other rabbitfish, I will give some consideration on what to do long term...

You mention that you beleive the probelm is part of a "group" of pathogens - what would that group be called?

If there is any chance of introducing this pathogen into the new display tank, I would much rather treat all the fish now rather than risk our long term plans. That being said you clearly state that I should separate the purple tang into its own hospital tank for treatment - should I be looking at treating all the fish that have been potentially exposed? If so, what is the reasoning behind separating the purple tang? It would not be a problem to remove the small amount of base rock from the current QT tank and replace it with some PVC pipes, which I should have done from the start.

RE: Diet, prior to the disease outbreak, I had switched up the feeding to use the green/purple/red two little fishes sea veggies as the primary diet (70-80%) for the tang, rabbitfish and blenny. It has been a recent realisation that herbavores really should be fed marine plants as the bulk of their diet (obvious now isnt it).

I know the copper medications are available in Australia, I will try track down the other two. Are there alternatives to the formalin baths? This one I fear may be tricky to get my hands on.

Thank you once again for your time and assistance.

 

[leebca]

Well, looks like I overlooked the fact you were in Australia. So many medications available here (USA) are not available in other countries.

I would not treat other fishes unless they display. The pathogens are opportunistic -- meaning they only show up when the fish is weakened. Trying to erradicate opportunistic pathogens is like trying to remove each grain of sand from a large sandy beach (Black Beach): even if you succeed, the ocean just washes more up on the shore.

Within the group of opportunistic pathogens there is a sub-group of those that appear to be fungal infections. REAL marine fish fungal infections are rare and if a fish I receive has one, I euthanize it immediately because it is so hard = almost impossible to cure; and because it spreads easily to other weakened fishes. The greater number of pathogens within this sub-group are commonly called 'fake fungal' infections. They are a cross between bacterial and the true fungal pathogens that, when infecting a fish, give the appearance of a kind of fungal infection, however, not quite the same. Like in this case, they cause spots, rather than infecting just one area where (most often the case of real fungal infections) where an injury or skin breach has occured on a weakened fish. They cause the other symptoms you've listed, too.

As briefly alluded to in the previous post, the best defense against opportunistic pathogens is a healthy fish, low stress, nutritiously sound, in a proper environment. If you have marine fish vitamins and fat supplements available to you, be sure to include them routinely.

Yeah, herbivores eat veggies. It's amazing how many hobbyists don't seem to get this, or even learned the fish in their care ARE herbivores. :mmph:

If I missed any particular question or if you have more, just post.

 

[Semillon]

We have made the decision to euthanaise the fish since while I was trying to track down the medication suggestied, he has not shown any interest in food for two days.

Once again thank you Lee for taking the time to respond and offer advice.

 

[Semillon]

... well that sucked.

The clove oil was very effective, he went to sleep in around 1min.

Aside from now watching like a hawk for any spot-like symptoms and being ready to apply the recommended treatments, is there anything else I should be doing to ensure the health and well being of the remaining fish?

I am looking onto vitamin supplement options and will attempt to reduce the amount of pellets fed to the clownfish, already the rabbitfish and blenny eat primarily marine algaes.

 

[leebca]

Just focus on maintaining the best nutrition you can provide, reduce stressors, provide excellent water quality and top notch environment

 

[Semillon]

Thought I would drop in for a follow up post...

3 weeks on and none of the surviving fish are showing any signs of disease, I have taken steps to improve nutrition including soaking most meals in vitamins (kent marine zoe, still trying to track down a "fats" supplement here in Australia...) and also managed to get my hands on some anti-paracite food for a de-worming treatment.

Thanks again Lee for providing this wealth of information.

 

[Frankie]

Thanks for the update! Glad the MI is gone. Congrats!

 

[Semillon]

Thanks for the update! Glad the MI is gone. Congrats!

It wasnt MI but thanks anyhow

 

[leebca]

You're welcome. Glad things are turning around for the better!