ich Immunity

[Paul B]

It has always interested me why some tanks are plagued with ich and others seem immune. Most of us know all about the Ich life cycle but I believe we are missing something. Many of us have tanks where we know ich is happily living but causing no harm while other tanks just can't seem to keep anything alive. I know when my tank was new I was one of those people who had to keep copper in there continousely. Now my fish, including so called "Ich Magnet" hippo tangs are immune. My theory is that very healthy fish in breeding condition rarely get ich although I don't know why. Ich is a paracite and not a "real" disease. It is not internal, not a bacteria or virus so our fishes immune systems should not be able to launch a defense. but somehow it does. To me it seems it would be like being immune from gun shots.
I know there are theories about an immunity or partial immunity but I really don't see how that is possable.
I know that either my tank conditions or "immunity" if you will repels ich infections but I also know that ich is alive and doing well in my tank.
I have many times introduced fish with ich into my tank and the fish will either die or get cured but never will it affect other fish. I wrote about this before and I bring it up again because last week I bought a Shark Nosed Gobi, that seemed healthy so introduced it into my tank. I do not quarantine and have not in many years (my tank is wierd so you should always quarantine)
After a few days I noticed that gobi was full of ich to the point that I knew it would be dead in the morning. I caught it and cured it with copper in another tank. None of the other fish have ich and I know from experience that they will not get it. The other six or so shark nosed gobies in the LFS from the same shipment died in the store.
Does this happen to anyone else? I personally thing it is either a tank condition or a general health factor.
Anyway it is something that I think about and it bothers me that I don't yet know the answer.
Take care.
Paul

 

[daReefPeep]

yah my tank is like that. but its just with fish I first started with. About a year and a half ago I had an electrical current and all those fish lived and lived through ich.

 

[addocdreefer]

i'm no expert by any means, but have experienced similar events that you described. i believe that (immunity you mentioned) has more to do with the slime coat fish have on them. under "normal" conditions the slime coat probably tastes bad to the ich parasite. if a fish is stressed or exposed to other environment induced stress like poor water conditions the slime coat is weakened and the fish becomes vulnerable to the parasite. the copper treatment kills the parasite until the fish recovers it's slime coat and can naturally fight off these parasites on it's own. that's my 2 cents anway. regards, tom

 

[Paul B]

Tom, your two cents makes sense. Any new fish I buy will be affected by ich. Of course in the store they are not as healthy as an older fish in my tank. I still notice the paracite once in a while on hippos. I know the paracite has always been in my tank and the only fish affected will be new onew or fish near death from old age. or injury like jumping out.
Paul

 

[roscoe]

I agree with Addo. I think most of us have ich in our system it seems like it is always the injured fish or stressed out fish that get attacked by ich. I beleive it is the slime coat that protects the fish from the paracite, once the slime coat thins out a lil it gives the ich better access to their skin. just my 2cents

 

[Damsel13]

seems to me that the maturity of the whole system helps fishes fight off ich. In a perfect world all would be quarintened (sheesh can't spell today! OK can't spell period.) but seeing that that is a hardship on the new hobbiist most are not or at least not for long enough. My theory is that the lack of slime on new inhabitants really puts them at risk. Me personally, I have not introduced any "sensitive" fish into my system. My yellow tang had a slight case of "black" ich... left a few scars but 20 months later has not had another outbreak.
I think Paul is on the right track.....mature tank.
Am I way off base?

 

[Paul B]

Damsel you could be on the right track, I really don't know what causes some tanks to differ in suseptibility. That is the clue I am looking for. My tank is very old but what exactly happens and when does it happen. I know that for maybe the first ten years ich made it very hard to keep salt water fish. Now I never think about it unless I read something about it. It is almost always seen in store and if you don't see it it is because they use copper which will "hide" the paracite from our view by not letting it complete it's life cycle but as soon as you remove the copper the ich will appear.
Paul

 

[Herefishyfishy]

It is almost always seen in store and if you don't see it it is because they use copper which will "hide" the paracite from our view by not letting it complete it's life cycle but as soon as you remove the copper the ich will appear.
Paul

I agree mostly, but the copper in the LFSs tank's isn't just hiding it, it is killing it. The reappearance later typically is from the Ich already being in one's own tank with mostly immune fish

 

[Paul B]

Mike, I diden't mean the copper is used to hide the ich, I know it is there to kill the ich. I just meant that when copper is used we may not be able to see that the fish is infected.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

Yep, Many of the fish are not in the copper treated tanks long enough to fully cure the fish as that is not their aim, it is to sell them. I bet one could start a hospital/store where all fish were fully treated prior to selling them. A few would shop there, but when the fish at Petco or other LFSs were 1/3 or less of the price at the safe store, not many would pay it.

The money would be better invested in curing humans than throwing it away on a bad business venture.

QT everything for 4-6 weeks is generally agreed on. Who does this? Less than one would believe. My personal solution is to not buy many fish. Oh well...

 

[Damsel13]

at my local fish store there is a seperate water source. The store keeps the corals in this place and puts a few fish in this system and does not sell them for a LONG time. The other fish go into the "mainstream" water column thus are completly at risk for all infections including marine ich.
It doesn't seem that there is a way to get around this for the hobbyist who cannot afford to quarentine fish.

Do you have advice?

 

[Scooterman]

I see good & bad from all this. Can you process newly arrived fish & keep a tank without ICK, I think you could if you can strictly follow required treatments as in Hypo. I have also heard some guys QT fish to the letter & a year later breakout with it. It is something to brag about, that you can keep fish with ICK in your tank? NO not in my Opinion, because they require lots more than that, replicating a reef is impossible unless you own the reef itself. So what does that leave us? This answer opens many aspects to keeping a reef or marine tank.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

Do you have advice?

Yeah! Don't worry be happy

And keep your water quality excellent at all times while the tank matures

 

[addocdreefer]

a couple of things that i have in my reef that are also on the natural reef: cleaner shrimp and cleaner gobies. on a few occasions i have had outbreaks these cleaners have saved the day or tang whatever the case maybe. one time my cleaner shrimp died and i didn't get around to replacing him for a long time. everything seemed fine, and i probably got a little cocky and introduced a kole tang. he apeared to be ich free but a week later contracted ich and a few days several other fish in the tank also. before i was able to get another cleaner shrimp i lost the kole and my bicolor blenny i had for over four years. i almost lost my yellow tang but he spent alot of time "bonding" with the cleaner shrimp. in the wild cleaner fish/shrimp are known to have literally a line of customers waiting to be cleaned. i have witness this in my tank also. this is not a cure all, but sure helps.



tom

 

[Damsel13]

Who is that cheese head in your picture? Welcome to Reef Frontiers! I need to get another cleaner shrimp as soon as I can find one bigger than my mantis!!!!!!!! Ich is ichy

 

[addocdreefer]

Deb The cheese head is Spencer, youngest of three cheese boys.:lol:

I also had another thought to add about ich immunity. In response to the established aquariums being more immune to ich than newer tanks, I still think it it stress related. Animals and people too, are creatures of habit. If anything changes that, their world is turned upside down. We as humans can reason through changes to decide if they are good or bad. Fish don't see it that way. There's someone new here taking my bed, my food, threatening my health, hitting me, and no matter what i do they won't leave. i think just a small change has a much more severe affect than we think. It's almost a socialogical/psycological induced disease. In long eatablished aquariums, even fish that aren't supposed to get along (in book descriptions) seem to be best buddies when they have been together for a long time in the same tank. i recall older oscars i have had in the past being exceptionally beligerent to newcomers, while juveniles are more accepting. Thanks for bending your ear, I tend to ramble sometimes.

Tom

 

[Damsel13]

like rambling, and nice to get a name to that hat that is bigger than Spencer! Redskins fan here. We could acutally get along at least over the summer um just don't mention the Giants O.K.

 

[addocdreefer]

Deb,
Agreed, I'm still grumbling over "THAT" game!!! Maybe next year.

Here's more ramble. I just got (a whole heck of alot) of frags from a seller on ebay. That's 7 in red neck, and my YS maroon clown thinks some belong on the bottom upside down. She's a stubborn little turd, too. Worse than even me. It's been two weeks, and still has not accepted their presence. How do they know which ones you spent the most $ on? It thinks it's is a D-9 Cat and just keeps pushing hard until somthing gives.

Tom

 

[Herefishyfishy]

Glue the frags to a larger rock with superglue gel

 

[addocdreefer]

I haven't done that before. Does the water not effect the glue or do I have to remove the rock and frag and dry the surfaces to be glued. Does the glue affect anything in the tank? I know I got scolded by my dentist for supergluing my broken crown on my tooth . He said it could kill the nerve and if it did I'd need a root canal.:shock: