Ich Size Question - Sump as QT?

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So based upon our conversation, you cannot be sure that your tank is ich free. It is completely possible that you have a small amount of ich living in your tank, without your fish ever showing signs of infection because they are well cared for, and relatively stress free. And as long as the fish remain otherwise healthy, the balance never tips in ich's favor.
 
Can I give you the assurance you need, doesn't seem so no.
Do I believe that a majority of fish carry sub clinical diseases parasites, no.
Do I think a fish can go through collection, transport, redistribution, the LFS and then to the hobbyist and still remain healthy enough to fight a parasite and have it remain hidden, no.
Am I confidant that the fish I introduce into one of my tanks is parasite free, yes most definately.

Cheers
Steve
 
Neuro doc,i was having this same issue.. i qt'd one of my hippo's, but didn't treat w/ hypo..i wondered if the tang could have possibly had ich, but never shown signs while in qt...i am pretty sure that being a sensitve fish like this that it would have shown up from stress from shipping and from just daily tank chores....i do, however, see what you mean..i just asked steve about this a few weeks ago myself
 
Can I give you the assurance you need, doesn't seem so no.
Do I believe that a majority of fish carry sub clinical diseases parasites, no.
Do I think a fish can go through collection, transport, redistribution, the LFS and then to the hobbyist and still remain healthy enough to fight a parasite and have it remain hidden, no.
Am I confidant that the fish I introduce into one of my tanks is parasite free, yes most definately.

Cheers
Steve
Hmmm... Why do you even QT fish, then? By your reasoning, if it appears healthy at the LFS (after going through collection, transport, and redistribution) without signs of a parasite it should be free of disease, particularly since you don't believe that it can carry a sub-clinical infection. Or is it that you think it makes it to your LFS and then gets infected 3 to 7 days before you buy it.

This makes me curious. Based upon your experience, how many fish have you had that develop signs of ich while in QT? And if so, how long did it take them do do so? Have you ever had a fish shows signs of ich in your display tank, after going through QT?

If a fish in QT gets ich more than a week after it is placed in QT, then the ich either came from the QT tank, or it came from the fish. Which again, means that the fish was infected sub-clinically, allowing a release of protomonts resulting in the life cycle of the parasite existing in the tank and re-infecting the fish. And then why does the fish show clinically signs? Is it because the number of trophonts in the tank is overwhelming, or is it because it is stressed out, with poor nutrition throughout the process that got it to your house?
 
Neuro doc,i was having this same issue.. i qt'd one of my hippo's, but didn't treat w/ hypo..i wondered if the tang could have possibly had ich, but never shown signs while in qt...i am pretty sure that being a sensitve fish like this that it would have shown up from stress from shipping and from just daily tank chores....i do, however, see what you mean..i just asked steve about this a few weeks ago myself
Ron, I appreciate your experience. Thanks for the post. I just recently had an ich outbreak in my display tank. My purple tang was heavily infected. However, my hippo tang never showed a single sign of infection; continued to swim, eat, and behave normally. Why? Is it because it has developed immunity? Is it because it had been in my tank for a longer time than the purple tang (which showed signs of infection 2d after being placed in my tank, without QT, I admit) and was well-fed and accustomed to the tank, and therefore was not stressed out? I was extremely surprised, particularly since hippos are supposed to be so sensitive to ich.

I also have seen fish get ich after months in a tank that has had nothing added to it in months. What causes that? Where did the ich come from?

I think that this whole discussion has really shown that unless we treat during initial QT, we can never be absolutely sure that ich doesn't exist in our tanks.
 
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I gotta ask why the need to draw this out to the level of absurd? Your questions are actually making less and less sense. You questions have been answered. If you don't like or agree with them, that is not my challenge to overcome it's yours. To be honest, I am really beginning to think you just busting my chops here. :confused:

There are many many different types of parasite, bacterial infections and viral conditions that will not be evident in a 5-7 day period. Study the life cycle of the parasite you keep harping on so needlessly and you'll undertsand how unterly useless your line of questioning has been. That is why you need to take a minimum QT time of 4 weeks for every new wet addition, fish or otherwise. I did not say it was impossible for sub clinical infections, I said it was highly unlikely and not the norm. If you wish to believe otherwise that is completely your choice and you should act appropriately.

Stop rehashing the things you don't like the answers of. I am here to help and guide you, not spoon feed you. Move on!!

Regards
Steve
 
Steve,

Are you always so arrogant and condescending? I am not trying to bust your chops, but to understand the reasoning behind the advice you have given in this, and many other threads.

This discussion started with a hypothesis I had about using my refugium for initial observation of a fish, as it related to ich, and only ich. You jumped in with a response to one of my statements, calling it sheer nonsense.

The whole discussion has revolved around ich, not other parasites or bacteria. I asked for some sort of proof as to your statements, and you could provide none. I even modified my original statement to make it more palatable for you.

You even asked me to stick to the science of the topic. I feel that I have done so, asking valid questions, based upon the life cycle of ich. I completely understand it, and I have a good understanding of general parasitology and bacteriology. Yet, rather than answer my questions with facts or science, pointing out where my understanding of the life cycle of C. irritans may be incorrect, you accuse me of absurdity. Ultimately, your position boiled down to dogmatic statements of "I believe" and "I think" and "I am confident."

I would like to keep this conversation civil, but you make it very difficult. :)

Returning to civil discourse, I have the following questions.

I don't understand why QT fish for 4 weeks based upon the life cycle of ich, unless it is purely to catch the rare case of clinically-silent infection. Trophonts exist on the fish for 3-7 days before exiting to form protomonts and tomonts. So unless the fish are sub-clinically shedding protomonts without showing signs of infection, 7 days seems a reasonable amount of time to ensure they don't have ich (i.e. to see the trophont on the fish). That is what prompted my question as to how often you see an infection after a week of QT, as it would give some indication to the frequency of sub-clinical infections.

Four weeks of QT for non-fish, wet additions, makes perfect sense, because tomonts can exist up to that long (at typical tank temps) before maturing to trophonts. Although, according to Bartelme, they have significantly diminished infectiousness after two weeks.

If it is to catch sub-clinical infections, aren't there other QT possibilities? Couldn't one just keep two QT tanks, and transfer the fish between them each day, drying the empty tank to eliminate the tomonts? All the trophonts would have matured off the fish, and there would be no chance of re-infection. I realize that this is not ideal, and would cause some increased stress on the fish, but you could then guarantee no ich after 7 days.

Are there any other illness, viral, bacterial, or parasitological, that require QT longer than a week, making this whole issue moot? I always thought that ich was the primary (not only) reason QT is recommended.
 
Are you always so arrogant and condescending? I am not trying to bust your chops, but to understand the reasoning behind the advice you have given in this, and many other threads.
I call it complete frustration. FWIW, most of the information or "proof" as you put it is not web published. You need to check libraries and University studies.

There are two people actively involved in this discussion and one has pretty much lost all interest in it's future.

This discussion started with a hypothesis I had about using my refugium for initial observation of a fish, as it related to ich, and only ich. You jumped in with a response to one of my statements, calling it sheer nonsense.
It did no such thing, it started with your staement here...
I tend to fall into the camp that believes that all tanks have ich, whether or not the fish get it. If the parasite is ubiquitous in the ocean then we are fooling ourselves if we think we can keep it out of our tanks.
It was sheer nonsense then, it still is now. You've already admited to that here...
I think that if you read my previous post, you will see that I now believe that ich can be eliminated

The whole discussion has revolved around ich, not other parasites or bacteria. I asked for some sort of proof as to your statements, and you could provide none. I even modified my original statement to make it more palatable for you.
No actually it has gone back and forth in several respects. Either we are talking about "a parasite" or C. irritans. I cannot answer unspecific misdirected questions with any accuracey.

I don't understand why QT fish for 4 weeks based upon the life cycle of ich, unless it is purely to catch the rare case of clinically-silent infection. Trophonts exist on the fish for 3-7 days before exiting to form protomonts and tomonts.
Exactly!! The trophont exists for a certain number of approximate predetermined days but absolutely no way of knowing what day it actually leaves the fish and no way of knowing exactly what time frame the tomites excyst from the tomont. The tomont stage can last anywhere from 3 days to a month or longer. If you look at the possible combinations, the fish can be reinfected in as little as 3 days after adding to a tank.

So unless the fish are sub-clinically shedding protomonts without showing signs of infection, 7 days seems a reasonable amount of time to ensure they don't have ich (i.e. to see the trophont on the fish). That is what prompted my question as to how often you see an infection after a week of QT, as it would give some indication to the frequency of sub-clinical infections.
As I keep saying over and over, subclinical infection is not impossible. What is rare is that the fish will last 4 weeks without showing clinical infestation. It only takes one trophont to mature and infect a tank. Repeated infection is what allows the infection to be noticed easily. You contention is that all fish should be treated to be absolutely sure. To which I said if that's what you need to do to feel secure then have at it. I did not under any circumstances say you shouldn't

If it is to catch sub-clinical infections, aren't there other QT possibilities? Couldn't one just keep two QT tanks, and transfer the fish between them each day, drying the empty tank to eliminate the tomonts? All the trophonts would have matured off the fish, and there would be no chance of re-infection. I realize that this is not ideal, and would cause some increased stress on the fish, but you could then guarantee no ich after 7 days.
No, the ideal method of this treatment is transfering the fish every three days. The tank transfered from is torn down, cleaned, dried and reset up. This process is continued for a total of 4 transfers. It was first introduced by Dr. Colorni.

Are there any other illness, viral, bacterial, or parasitological, that require QT longer than a week, making this whole issue moot? I always thought that ich was the primary (not only) reason QT is recommended.
Yes, most definately. There are actually some with longer life cycles. The reasoning behind the 4 weeks is it covers the most common types. Your not actually just observing one part of the parasite(s) cycle but all of them. To assume that the fish you have will be at a precise level of infestation at a given time would be foolish. They do not politely line up in a row and wait for their turn at the fish. They all go at it haphazzardly, the cycles being at multiple points at any given time and overlapping.

Cheers
Steve
 
Or we can both take the high road and try to work this out amiably.

You have a question that I obviously have not answered to meet your needs. I am more than willing to try and help you realize that answer but you have to meet me part way. It is not my wish to fight or argue with you. In keeping with that, instead of discussing multiple topics and varied avenues, let's take this point by point. One post, a one sentence question that is direct and to the point. No paragraphs, embelishments etc...

If there's more than one topic, we'll tackle that later. One step at a time. Once your satisfied with the answer or there is no answer, the next topic can be discussed.

I leave it up to you.

Cheers
Steve
 

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