Ick Scare!!!Care To Discuss Anyone?

[Skipper J]

This morning my wife notice some ick like spots on my sohal tang(Patience) as I was trying to feed my fishes in my display tank. This is a bomber! More so because 15days ago I set up this tank from 3 perfectly problem free small tanks. Now it looks like I have my hands full if this goes to be a full blown ick. I came home this lunch time to check on the development and looks like the trophont have drop off from the body leaving hard to notice spots on the sohal body.Could this thing drop that fast? I have notice the scratching about a few days ago but did not notice any ick on the sohal at all or even last night.Since it is white its a bit difficult to see. Now Question!!! It's only the sohal that is infected for now, no noticeable infestation on the other tang(sailfin,clown,vlamingi) or fish(clown,5pajama,2damsel,dwarfhawkfish,Canthigaster papua) How is this possible? No infection on the other fish? Have I diagnose it correctly? I'll be observing the development tomorrow before drastic action is to be taken. Meaning taking out all the fish from the display tank.huh!huh I can't imagine the mess I'm gonna create with this transfer. Well this is the chance of doing another aquascape as I did a temporary one for the initial set up.

If I remove the infected fish and after lets say a month or more nothing else gets infected. Does this mean the tank is ick free?.Or will the ick die if no sign of thier life cycle is seen on the tank?. Is there a case that this thing can be dormant for a long period of time and with the right condition infect the tank?. Obviously I'm trying to find an easy way our of this so excuse this questions.

I'm taking the route of gradually lowering down the salinility to 14ppt as describe in the Parajack/Steve S/ Terry thread if things are confirm. I'm adding Beta Glucan on the food and some vitamins at the moment to boost immunity. Now this is getting to be a long story so before I bore the wits out of you I'll appreciate any input on this ick problem. Thanks! Happy New Year!

Joey

 

[Rock-N-Ruin]

tank size?? water param's?? amount of live rock?? inverts?? some questions others will want to know also.. Cleaner shrimp?? Here's some more info on beta glucan, for anyone curious!!

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/sept2003/feature.htm

adding Garlic? Selcon? Kent Zoe? just some ideas!

 

[steve-s]

I came home this lunch time to check on the development and looks like the trophont have drop off from the body leaving hard to notice spots on the sohal body.Could this thing drop that fast? I have notice the scratching about a few days ago...... but did not notice any ick on the sohal at all or even last night.

This can often be a problem with this parasite, especially in the early stages. It can go unnoticed quite easily in the beginning. "A few days of scratching" could indicate it's presence or just simpley the water quality of the newly merged tanks irritating the fish. It is surely enough time for the trophont to develope enough to move onto the tomont stage. Only time will tell for sure (about 3-7ish days). If the spots return, you will know.

Now Question!!! It's only the sohal that is infected for now, no noticeable infestation on the other tang(sailfin,clown,vlamingi) or fish(clown,5pajama,2damsel,dwarfhawkfish,Canthigaster papua) How is this possible? No infection on the other fish? Have I diagnose it correctly?

That will be evident soon enough as to the diagnosis. As for the other fish, if the parasite has indeed gone to the tomont stage all are at risk and all will be potential carriers if left untreated.

If I remove the infected fish and after lets say a month or more nothing else gets infected. Does this mean the tank is ick free?.Or will the ick die if no sign of thier life cycle is seen on the tank?. Is there a case that this thing can be dormant for a long period of time and with the right condition infect the tank?. Obviously I'm trying to find an easy way our of this so excuse this questions.

No quick fix here I'm afraid. If the fish are indeed infested (not yet confirmed IMO), then it will continue to be an issue down the road. Some may develop a partial immunity and not show "clinical" symptoms for some time but can and usually will develop full blown cases at the first upset. The parasite can die out on it's own but that can take quite a while (usually the fish go first) and that's being sure that no new ones are introduced by other means.
See <<this>> previously discussion for some insight.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Skipper J]

tank size?? water param's?? amount of live rock?? inverts?? some questions others will want to know also.. Cleaner shrimp??
adding Garlic? Selcon? Kent Zoe? just some ideas!

Tank Size is 150 gals
Water Parameter Salinity - 33ppt
ph - 8
temp - 26 deg Celsius
For other parameter I'll do editing later to include exact values as I don't have that record with me right now.

Steve, I'm glad you're around. I'm reading your thread with Parajack and I got lot's of input.Thanks!

This morning with lights off, the ick infestation symptom is very obvious with the sohal. However with the glaring light it would be difficult to see the parasite even up close.I would like to think that its the tiny particles in the tank that's adhering to the sohal body but I guess time to accept that this is happening. I'm snapping out of the state of denial and face the problem head on before this becomes a full blown disaster.:lol: :lol:

Ok! What I have right now is a 55gal tank intended for my sump and a 30gal tank. I have refractometer and pH meter as well as pH buffer. I'm using a 6 stage RO/DI water for lowering down the salinity and I'll be using 100% of the display tank water to avoid acclimation and stress the fish.This weekend I'm gonna have to go thru the rigors of removing the fish in my display tank for QT. I will have to get me those PVC pipes for hiding place and prepare water for the the hyposalinity approach.

That will be evident soon enough as to the diagnosis. As for the other fish, if the parasite has indeed gone to the tomont stage all are at risk and all will be potential carriers if left untreated.

Some may develop a partial immunity and not show "clinical" symptoms for some time but can and usually will develop full blown cases at the first upset. The parasite can die out on it's own but that can take quite a while (usually the fish go first) and that's being sure that no new ones are introduced by other means.

Lets say they become carriers or become maybe immune to ick. How long will they stay potential contaminant to other fish. Is there a certain period of time that a parasite die down could be achieve and be certain that, without any other introduction of parasite, end the parasite lifecycle. Is it possible then that a fish without showing any sign of infestation can pass on this parasites. I need to trace how could this be happening as well to prevent it from happening again and put additional measure in my QT regimen.

All this said I'll keep you all updated on the development so this may serve as reference like the other threads I have read for this kind of problem to my fellow hobbyist. Again thanks!

Joey

 

[steve-s]

tang(sailfin,clown,vlamingi) or fish(clown,5pajama,2damsel,dwarfhawkfish,Canthigas ter papua)

Some potentially large fish and aggression issues there for a 55 gal tank. You will find setting up an additional Qt will be a saving grace here. Even if just a rubbermaid bin, the water quality issues on all being in one tank is not going to be easy.

Ok! What I have right now is a 55gal tank intended for my sump and a 30gal tank. I have refractometer and pH meter as well as pH buffer. I'm using a 6 stage RO/DI water for lowering down the salinity and I'll be using 100% of the display tank water to avoid acclimation and stress the fish.This weekend I'm gonna have to go thru the rigors of removing the fish in my display tank for QT. I will have to get me those PVC pipes for hiding place and prepare water for the the hyposalinity approach.

Be sure to buffer the RO to the same alk levels as the QT prior to lowering the salinity. This will greatly reduce pH drops and the fish will have a much easier time of it. Also be sure to check the pH a short time after each drop in salinity to be sure. When attempting to move the fish, I would highly recommend doing so after normal lights out an the fish are "abed", they will be much easier to catch. It will result in much less stress and damage.

Lets say they become carriers or become maybe immune to ick. How long will they stay potential contaminant to other fish. Is there a certain period of time that a parasite die down could be achieve and be certain that, without any other introduction of parasite, end the parasite lifecycle.

Wishful thinking I'm afraid. Although possible, the likelyhood is quite rare and commonly the fish do not last as long as the parasite. Aquired immunity is rather short lived and the parasite returns in as little as 6 months or less, usually in much higher numbers than the initial onslought. Any amount of stress from any number of sources can allow the fish's immunity to be weekened.

That all said, the parasite is said to not be able to live beyond 34 cycles which equates to about 11ish months. Here is a direct quote from this article

Burgess and Matthews (1994) were attempting to maintain a viable population of C. irritans which could be used in later studies. To maintain the parasite populations, they needed host fish in order for the trophonts to feed and continue the life cycle. Each host fish was only used once in a process of serial transition such that none of the hosts would die or develop an immunity. While the procedure worked very well and enabled them to maintain populations for some time, the viability of the populations decreased with time and none of the 7 isolates they used survived more than 34 cycles, around 10 to 11 months. They suggest this is due to senescence and aging in cell lines is well recognised in Ciliophora

Is it possible then that a fish without showing any sign of infestation can pass on this parasites. I need to trace how could this be happening as well to prevent it from happening again and put additional measure in my QT regimen.

If the fish where not prophylactically treated for C. irritans prior to entering the display tank, the threat exists albeit small if going through at least a 4 week QT stint. There is also the possibility of transfering/introducing the parasite by non fish means. Anything wet really has the potential to be a source, especially where fish are housed. The most common I find is the introduction of rock, sand or hard shelled invertebrates without quarantining first. If you do not/cannot QT these types of items, then you should at the very least ensure your sources are obtained from fishless holding tanks that do not share a common filtration system with tanks containing fish. The risk is still there but somewhat reduced. It is by no means a replacement for good QT practices as it's not just C. irritans that can affect your tank. There are a host of other fish/coral parasites that can be unknowingly introduced.

Cheers
Steve

 

[Skipper J]

Some potentially large fish and aggression issues there for a 55 gal tank. You will find setting up an additional Qt will be a saving grace here. Even if just a rubbermaid bin, the water quality issues on all being in one tank is not going to be easy.

I agree using two tanks would be more convenient for the fish but not the hobbyist A few days ago I told myself I have graduated into maitaining these smaller tanks. What my plans are to group the fish together according to how heavy the infestation will be or the potential of being infected severely.

BTW thank you for that very informative article. The piece by Terry I have read before and had to review again.

Be sure to buffer the RO to the same alk levels as the QT prior to lowering the salinity. This will greatly reduce pH drops and the fish will have a much easier time of it. Also be sure to check the pH a short time after each drop in salinity to be sure. When attempting to move the fish, I would highly recommend doing so after normal lights out an the fish are "abed", they will be much easier to catch. It will result in much less stress and damage.

Checked!
Last night while taking out my puffer fish who has been snippping my SPS for a few days now I have discovered the use of the acrylic tube to be very convenient and less stressful when catching this fish in our tank.

Wishful thinking I'm afraid. Although possible, the likelyhood is quite rare and commonly the fish do not last as long as the parasite. Acquired immunity is rather short lived and the parasite returns in as little as 6 months or less, usually in much higher numbers than the initial onslought. Any amount of stress from any number of sources can allow the fish's immunity to be weekened.

That all said, the parasite is said to not be able to live beyond 34 cycles which equates to about 11ish months. Here is a direct quote from this article.

If the fish where not prophylactically treated for C. irritans prior to entering the display tank, the threat exists albeit small if going through at least a 4 week QT stint. There is also the possibility of transfering/introducing the parasite by non fish means. Anything wet really has the potential to be a source, especially where fish are housed. The most common I find is the introduction of rock, sand or hard shelled invertebrates without quarantining first. If you do not/cannot QT these types of items, then you should at the very least ensure your sources are obtained from fishless holding tanks that do not share a common filtration system with tanks containing fish. The risk is still there but somewhat reduced. It is by no means a replacement for good QT practices as it's not just C. irritans that can affect your tank. There are a host of other fish/coral parasites that can be unknowingly introduced.

Cheers
Steve

Clear!Crystal!
So now even the corals that are coming in I need to QT for no less than 6weeks. I suspect this is the reason for contamination since previous setups are runnig for several month without any problem at all.Which means a system w/o fish to serve as a host if ever there are parasites present that comes with the corals. I bring you up to date with the development. Tonight I just came from watching Watson Water Champion Challenge ladies tennis tournament so I could only take picture of my current setup as well as taking photo of each individual fish for posterity before the final operation tomorrow night. Thank you again for your guidance.

Regards,
Joey

 

[steve-s]

Good luck!!

Cheers
Steve

 

[Steven Pro]

That all said, the parasite is said to not be able to live beyond 34 cycles which equates to about 11ish months. Here is a direct quote from this article

I just wanted to point out that while Burgess & Matthews were unable to keep their Cryptocayron cultures going, Yoshinaga & Dickerson were successful is keeping a line going for over two years.

Yoshinaga & Dickerson. 1994. "Laboratory Propagation of Cryptocaryon irritans on a Saltwater-Adapted Poecilia Hybrid, the Black Molly" Journal of Aquatic Animal Health 6:197-201.

 

[steve-s]

Steven, Thanks for that. Found the abstract easily enough but it's a "subscribe to" site. Would it be money well spent?

Curious though, do you believe the fish species (brackish mainly) used had anything to do with the more favorable outcome? Better implementation of procedure or luck of the draw?

Cheers
Steve

 

[Steven Pro]

Don't pay for it. Go to your local library and request it via Inter Library Loan, ILL for short. It usually takes a week or so, but you get it for free. That is how I get most all my reading material.

I don't know why there was a difference, but the Burgess & Matthews paper used a brackish fish as well, the thick-lipped mullet Chelon labrosus.

 

[steve-s]

Don't pay for it. Go to your local library and request it via Inter Library Loan, ILL for short. It usually takes a week or so, but you get it for free. That is how I get most all my reading material

Many thanks...

Cheers
Steve