In-line vs Drop in Chillers?

[Maxx]

I read a thread about a guy with a 120 acrylic tank in a NY City apartment. He had an inline chiller for his set up, but swapped it out for a drop in. He feels that drop in chillers are more efficient than in line chillers. Based on my brief searching on the web, I'm inclined to agree with him.

Pro's:

Drop in chillers dont require an external pump to feed them. This means less power is used overall. This also means no heat added from another pump to the system.

Con's:

Drop in chillers only have a 5 foot cable for the heat exchanger, so you are limited in where you can place them. If you have an enclosed stand, you're going to need to vent the heat from the chiller somewhere, or you'll wind up re-heating your water from the (now) higher ambient air temperature.

This guy's solution to this was to (possibly) run a dryer duct vent from the rear of this chiller to somewhere else. Seems plausible, but possibly unsightly.

Thinking about this made me reevaluate what I'm doing with my tank and what I want to do for an upcoming upgrade. I currently have a 75 gallon (total water volume) system with dual 250 watt DE MH's, an Iwaki 55RLT running through an OM 4 way for circulation, and PCH CL-650 1/4 hp chiller fed by an Iwaki 40RLT. To my knowledge, the three biggest energy users in reefkeeping are lights, pumps, and chillers. If I can reduce 2 of the 3, I figure I can minimize the impact of my tank on my electrical bill. This becomes more important with a bigger tank.

Checking things out online, (information supplied by manufacturers), the Cyclone TrimLine 1/3HP Drop-In Chiller uses 7.2 amps of power and will remove 4050 BTU's from a tank.

By way of comparison, my CL-650 draws 5.8 amps, and removes 3000 BTU's.
CL-650 1/4HP Aquarium Chiller unit. You have to click on the instructions link (PDF) and then eyeball closely to see the power usage in the first thumbnail.
Factoring in my Iwaki 40RLT adds another 1.3 amps. So I'm running 7.1 amps to chill my modest 75 gallon system, when I can run 7.2 amps and chill 250 gallons...which is my target system volume.

Thoughts, comments, experiances??? Please give your input here as I'm trying to be as energy efficient as possible.

Nick

 

[Scooterman]

How often did that chiller kick on & off during the day & for how long? This is where the drop in would save you money because you don't have the pump running constantly unless you had a on off function with the chiller. So if chillers are like central a/c units I know if you go over size too much you will defeat the purpose also, so I'd dare to say sizing properly is also something to think about. Things like fans will also reduce chiller runtime, I had fans blowing directly on each MH lamp, & from there blowing out which helped big time. I'm building a new stand now, it will have a chiller box isolated on the side of the stand, sorta like a night stand that will be vented, so only the drop in would come across the two, it will be insulated also. If I can I want to run a dryer duct into the attic with a fan sucking out, it will tee off one duct for the sump area & one for the chiller area but before I actually build the chiller stand I will see what temps. my tank will run first. I don't know how much of a difference of running temps. at 80 as compared to 78 will make on corals? This would be the deciding factor I'd say but here in Louisiana it stays warm to hot all year so I'm guessing I will need one.

 

[Maxx]

My chiller does kick on and off rather frequently....havent tested it over a 24 hour period....(that would be boring as hell) but I'd guesstimate it ran approximately 15-20 times today alone. I know what your saying about the fans, I do that as well and will start here shortly. But I was primarily interested in the efficiency between the two styles of chillers.
I've heard from several people that inline's are more efficient, but so far, no one has said why it is or where they got their information from. It just is...so accept it.

I'm kinda stubborn and prefer to understand something whenever possible as opposed to just accepting this sort of information at face value.

Nick

 

[Scooterman]

Some thoughts here but the refrigerant in the coils don't have a farther distance to transfer heat as one but I'd say that wouldn't be much, not sure as to why either.

 

[big t]

So I am just curious Nick, do you have a pump solely for the purpose of running your chiller? I think most people just put their inline chiller on the return pump, I know that is what I do. Looking at your two examples the cyclone gets 562.5 btu's per amp and your inline gets 517 per amp. I would not include your iwaki even if it is dedicated now because you can eliminate that factor in the future. Purly based on the manufacturer claims you're looking at about 10% better efficiency factor on the drop in chiller. Now where you loose is the fact that it pretty much has to be in the room making all the noise that they make, where you can park the inline chillers under the house, outside the house or whatever. That in itself helps a little becuase the chiller won't have to fight itself heating up the room. Once you get up to a 1/2 horse unit it sure does heat up the room!

 

[Maxx]

Tom,
The Iwaki is my return pump. So no getting out of it that easy.
I know what you mean as far as heating the room, but I think if you vent it properly w/ dryer ductwork, etc, that would take care of the problem.

Also, The Cyclone is a 1/3 hp, my Inline is a 1/4 hp....so if the Cyclone is more efficient than a smaller chiller, thats really saying something.

Nick

 

[Scooterman]

If you want more efficiency look at the aqua logic chillers, they draw less stated amperage comprabable to most others, a higher price but will it make up for it in the long run?

 

[Maxx]

Scott, thats who makes the Cyclone drop in.

There are two reasons for me wanting to make my tank as energy efficient as possible. Reduce monthly bills, and be capable of running more of my tank on a generator in the event of a prolonged power outtage.

When we lived in StL city, a long power outtage was 1 hour. Once, power was out for 4 hours. Where I live now, there was a 2 week power outtage after a bad spring storm....about this time of year.

If I can run the tank "more" normally while being run off a generator, then the critters in the tank will be less stressed.

You're a good one to ask this....

How do I convert Amps to watts in a 110v setting? IE I know the draw of my pumps and my chiller in Amps, but my lights are in watts? How do I calculate the two together and come up with a number to base generator ratings at?

Nick

 

[big t]

Well Maxx the equation is watts divided by volts= amps. So theoretically your 500w of halides is drawing 4.54 amps. Now on the side of you ballast it probably says what amperage it is really drawing because it is not necessarily a true 250W. You could also find the true value on Sanjay's site I believe.

 

[Scooterman]

Nick I can relate to loosing power, one thing I must warn you when being out of power for such long times & generators, GAS! Nick you must think that local stations will have problems also so lines at the nearest gas station will be long & hopefully not run out on you like it happens here during hurricane season. If your like me you need food so you will be running a fridge on the gen at least several times a day to keep food that is very necessary, also some lighting to consider. DSAMG went through this long term power outages also so you can ask him also, one thing he mentioned don't get a gen. too big because it burns lots of gas for the amount of juice needed. I'm basing this on being down more then one day, like several days to weeks. So you need to come up very conservative gas usage during these times. So if this is your goal, maybe you can help me also with this thread I would say lighting can be reduced as much as half or less for a week with little problems, so cooling your water may not be as bad but then you need to factor in the A/C unit not running thus having warmer air temps. in the house.
Now with all that to think about we can build on that. One thing you can think about is your line voltage when doing your math for power consumption take regular measurements to see what is your average numbers (ie 119vac or 115vac), not getting into exacting measurement as some would but getting close enough to work out a long term power plan for your tank & home. Clamp on amp-meters can be used to get measurements while running & also you can check out the inrush (surge) with these but this is after you purchase your equipment & have it running that this will be useful.
All in all I agree I want to watch power consumption myself, I haven't done lots of research on these things but I'd think things like a Tunze (for emergencies only maybe, no controller) will move water cheaply & efficiently, Electronic ballast rather than tar, Timers, solid connections everywhere & if you have dedicated breakers checking your wire gauge on your wiring will if anything reduce voltage drops, which reduces motor heat, & extends the life of equipment running them at upper voltage ratings (this is being picky, just don't run anything under low voltage ratings) , even though this all may be trivial it may just be enough for what your looking far. All this may be argued by other professionals & they may actually bring up good points. Another thing I was looking into is 120vac fans over the ones with transformers, think they may be better also but I haven't looked into them yet but my thinking if you can remove that bulky transformer you may also remove some tiny waste in the actual conversion of the transformer lol tiny but hey worth looking into. Pumps external, well you have the idea. I know most of this you already have so you also have to consider is it cost effective. Ok this is a list of thought or things needing looking into to maybe make things cheaper to run.

Ok my Disclaimer: This information is suggestions, thoughts & comments not recommendations or by me or anyone affiliated with me or anyone in my company. This is subject to questions, trials & farther investigating with or without lawyers in the pursuit of truth justice & happiness! I take no reliability or derogatory responsibility (whatever that means) on any above postings or statements.

 

[The Apprentice]

Generators & Gas

Good postings Guys and good answers. Nick & Scooter I wanted to pass this on since making electricity is my thing There is more option for Home generation Power The most reliable is a small back up home generator that can run on Natural gas and or Propane I do know that from experience Running a 4.3 kW (4300) WATTS of generation will consume 7 gallons of propane in 4 days at base load ( Full load conditions) Nick there is allot of generator companies that will run on Propane if you don't have a Natural gas supply at your home now I understand Disasters and you may not have a gas supply during this time this is why i keep coming back to propane you can have a tank delivered to your home and depending on the size run as long as the tank size Most home generators sized for Back up power start at 3600 watts ( Kind of on the small side ) Up to 12 Kw. Also remember the bigger the generator the fuel you will burn

Just my 2 cents from you favorite power plant tech ...Jeff

 

[Scooterman]

Natural gas and or Propane

I agree & it is getting more popular down here these propane gens., I wish I had one before I purchased my big 11hp briggs gens set. Didn't know they could run that long on propane that is huge, wonder if the make conversion kits for a briggs?

Edit, I found online conversion kits, I think this may be a good thing to get for me, does anyone have pros. or cons of converting?

 

[The Apprentice]

Does anyone have pros. or cons of converting?

Hi again Scooter I think the pros on propane is its quite easer to start the unit IE fast transfer switching capable.
Storage is the biggest one I can see No vapor losses with fuel tanks expanding and contracting with temprature changes.
Unit burns way cleaner allowing it in more confined areas. Maintenance is easer in the fact of fewer oil changes due to a much cleaner burning fuel.
Cons: Well in most cases Your generator output is derated slightly because Propane/ Natural Gas has a lower heating Value than Gasoline or diesel so if your generator is rated for 4000 watts on Gasoline you will only see about 3850 watts on Propane or Natural gas Hope this helps...Jeff

I agree & it is getting more popular down here these propane gens., I wish I had one before I purchased my big 11hp briggs gens set. Didn't know they could run that long on propane that is huge, wonder if the make conversion kits for a briggs?

Edit, I found online conversion kits, I think this may be a good thing to get for me, does anyone have pros. or cons of converting?

 

[Scooterman]

My gen. is surge rated 5800 watts, so I'd still have plenty of power, I will try & convert mine from one of these on line kits, I'll post the information as I go.

 

[The Apprentice]

Getting back on track

Ok Scooter & Nick I just wanted to throw out one more Pro on In-line chillers and yes I am being a salesman now almost 2 years ago I needed 2 chillers for Both my tanks I wanted the best Bang for the $ I could find. I tried a PCI and mine is a CL-650 and didn't have very good luck with it been sitting in the garage ever since. So I tried a Prime Modular Chiller with the added UV light option ( Can't do this with a drop in) I have been running a 1/4 hp on a 75 gallon SPS tank and a 1/3 Hp on my 150 Tank with very great results. Nick you wanted some links with power consumption versus BTU's removed I think this will offer some more info.
http://www.current-usa.com/primemodular.html
These are what I have they are assembled in the USA with some overseas parts.
If your still leading in the drop in chiller check this out:
http://www.current-usa.com/primechillerdropin.html
What caught my eye this morning is If you look at the BTU rating on these versus the In-line they are rated the same
Now mine are old school (about 2 years old ) The MFG has a tower model out that is allot more efficient:
http://www.current-usa.com/primechillertower.html
Ok guys sales pitch is over.. ...Jeff

 

[Maxx]

Wow, thanks for the heads up on all of this.

Quick math on Amps vs BTU's removed by the Current USA chillers...

Prime Modular and Drop in 1/4 hp.....595.75 BTU's per amp.
Prime Modular and drop in 1/3 hp.....610.52 BTU's per amp.

But the big winners are the new Tower chillers.

Prime Tower 1/3 hp unit.....1000 BTU's per amp
Prime Tower 1/4 hp unit.....1120 BTU's per amp

Thats impressive.
Need to do some more research. I did find this regarding CL-650's and improved chilling......Pacific Coast Chiller/ Pump question

Long story short the chiller is seriously choked off by its inlet/outlet fittings.
This Mod takes care of that issue. Some day when I have time and a cool day, I'll redo my chiller plumbing to make it more efficient.

Nick

 

[meitzler]

What are the prices and who sells the drops. Any locally in Washington State.

 

[Maxx]

Marine Depot

Nick

 

[sparky52]

drop in chiller

What size chiller and or style/brand do you think I will need for my 180g tank located in the basement? Right now the temp goes no higher than 79F and there is a central air duct in the room, but im worried about those 100F summer days

 

[Scooterman]

ypu'll need a chiller with a room temp. that high.