Is there a benefit by going Natural?

[Curtswearing]

I was reading on another forum where someone wanted to remove their protein skimmer, UV sterilizer, power filter, and add a refugium because it is more natural (I.E. more closely represents a real reef).

Here is their equipment list.

55 gal reef tank
approx 75 lbs of live rock
approx 60 lbs of live sand
outside power filter (emperor 280)
canister filter (fluval 303)
Uv sterilizer (9 watt corallife)
Protein skimmer (seaclone)

They wanted to know what to remove first and why. They also wanted to know if they should remove items slowly over time or all at once and why? They were considering leaving their UV on because they own a Hepatus (blue/regal tang) which are prone to ich.

I thought this post had a lot of interesting things to discuss.

What would be the pros/cons of going natural?
If we decided that going natural was a benefit, would you remove the UV sterilizer or not?
If you were in the same situation, would you remove everything all at once or slowly over time?

 

[wrightme43]

JMHO, Pros, no noise, low electrical usage, it sounds cool. Cons, very low stocking ie. maybe on blue tang, maybe one goby. Any error in feeding, or a late water change could kill everything.
The first thing I would remove would be the fish. I would leave about 1 inch of fish for every 10 gals. I would want a lot of light. I would use clams to filter. I would remove the canister filter first. Then the bio wheel, then weeks later the hang on filter. I would then remove the uv, then wait and remove the skimmer.
I my mind the major problem would be overfeeding, or the death of a creature while you are asleep or at work. With no back up systems. Bad things could happen.
At the local fish store Mitch has a natrual tank IE no filtration. It has a coris wrasse, and a few hermit crabs. I think imo that it is plain and unattractive. Needs frequent water changes water is always murky.
If I was going to do it I would use those hippous? clams and deresa clams. I would want a refugium with seperate partions using algae, and mangroves. I would want a large amount of extra live rock in the sump. If it is a overstocked (normal) tank I would not remove my filtration. These are just my opinions. STEVE

 

[reedman]

I think we would need to define "natural" before going much further. In nature the drashing of waves creates many small bubles that act like a skimmer to move nutrients to the surface. Also, there is a continal water change being performed. The SPS portions of natural reefs are almost completely void of algae and I don't recall seeing any mangroves.

My point is that mimicking nature doesn't necessitate removing technology from our tanks. We are looking to recreate the environmental elements of where the animale we keep. We want water quiality to be as high as possible, lighting to be both in the right spectral range and of sufficient intensity, and water movement to the liking of our inhabitants. In my opinion this is very unrealisitic to think we can do this without any technology to help us out.

I do think you can do this with miinimal technology, especially for a non-SPS tank. If you are keeping animals that do not have high ca and alk demands then, a good skimmer and strong CLS, in conjunction with sufficient lighting could produce a very healthy tank. I don't beleive you need mechanical filtration (beyond what the skimmer will take out) or UV.

Steve's point on stocking levels is very good. What kind of filtration you use is heavily dependent on what you wish to keep.

-Reed

 

[mojoreef]

It is funy how these systems are called natural, lol. IMHO thier is nothing natural about them at all. ALl the mechanical filtration we put on our tanks are designed to mimic or recreate flitration methods that occur in the wild. Looking the system being outlined to me anyway it would be trying to mimic a stagnent tide pool.

A question? What peice of equipment would folks concider to be not naturally occuring in a reef???


MIke

 

[marinelife]

My one tank is set up with a deepsandbed and live rock and that is all the filter I use on it, it has some softies and only 4 fish in a 120. My 120 I feel is what is called natural since I have no plug in filters and do not use any carbon or sure on the tank. My 180 has two large sumps that hold live rock, a 75 gallon sump that hold macro algae, and a small sump that collects the water from the other sumps and the tank. I do have a skimmer on this tank, but it hardly pulls anything out of the water. This is a loaded tank with lots of fish and lots of SPS corals. The only problem with the tank is that I have a few spots of algae that I have only been able to link to the lighting I have on the tank as it started when I upgraded the lights and all other tested levels are great. I do not use UV instead I have cleaner shrimp that handle ich. You can go skimmerless but I would not recommend on a SPS tank. I try to have the least costly tanks to run but still have great looking tanks.

 

[wrightme43]

An Oil Derrek? ha ha Maybe a 7-11 store? ha Your right Mojo and Reed. I agree with you. Stagnent tide pool sums it up perfectly. I like my filtration systems. Natural is the wrong term for tanks with no filter. How about a LUDITE tank? But the question stands if you were going to do it. How would you do it? I think that is a reasonable question. Just because I wouldnt do it doesnt mean nobody wants to. You all probley have better ideas than mine and I would like to hear them. STEVE

 

[Dr B]

I agree with Mike on this... its silly!

 

[mojoreef]

Its not so much the concept a person runs on their system or what equipment I just find it funny that folks would think that was more natural.
Marinelife lets take a look at your system. To me it sounds like a system that is set up using certain filtration methods and containing certain corals. the system is working well and you have sad they look great to you. To me that sounds great, it sounds like you have a well running tank. I run mine pretty much opposite of yours in regards to overall filtration concepts, I also think I have a well running tank.
What I don't see and what baffles me is how one system could be called more natural then the other?? Marinelifes tank is setup to mimic an a particular enviroment in the ocean, my system is setup to mimic a particular enviroment in the ocean. their is nothing more or less natural about the two systems.

Marinelife I used your tank just to make a point and I am not arguing with anything you do or have on your system. Just wanted to qualify that.

Mike

 

[ahenson]

If you have good growth in refugium that is filtration. My tank is a 30g cube 20g sump 10g overhead fuge filled with chaeto. I prune chaeto every two weeks. I don't like sps much have birdsnest and a monti. I have thirty corals lots of lps, very active sandbed and lots of life in refugium. Return pump Eheim 1262 900 gph split to refugium. I would not call my tank stagnant. I have Euro-Reef in sump but it slowed my chaeto way down. I shut it off and all is well. Just my ramblings
Andy

 

[Curtswearing]

I have Euro-Reef in sump but it slowed my chaeto way down. I shut it off and all is well.

Apparently the skimmer was removing phosphates, organics, etc. enough so that your spaghetti mac algae wouldn't grow. That to me says that the skimmer was doing its job well and those nutrients would not be available for nuisance algaes either. Is there a reason other than nutrient export that you keep your chaeto?

 

[ahenson]

I like the diversity of critters it adds to main tank. It is gravity fed. As I understand when these spawn that feeds coral. Plus my clown gets fed. I like to watch that tank a lot, the shrimp chasing pods etc.lots of action. The skimmer was very efficient. Pulled out the most skimate of any skimmer I've had. Horrible stench! I think it's all pesonal preference. I could use skimmer and no fuge and would work fine. Inland aquatics has tons of sps and they don't run skimmers, they use ATS. I live about 45 minutes from them.

 

[mojoreef]

Andy your tank is different then the one discribed above. If you look at the set up he want to go with he has removed all filtration with the exception of a refugium and a dsb. his flow is low and he has very little in the way of removing nutrients. To me this would represent more of a stagnent setup.
In your system you have decesnt flow, a skimmer pulling nutrients and a refugium doing the same. What you are doing is creating an enviroment that is condusive to the corals you are trying to keep.
The point i was trying to make is why would a skimmer or a UV or so on be thought of as less natural??

Mike

 

[ahenson]

I agree. I wouldn't consider my tank low tech. I don't use skimmer that much and have it at lowest setting so it pulls almost black skimate. Plus my tank is in bedroom so noise is factor in shutting off skimmer. Without sump and strong return pump I think you are asking for problems. I have no doubts I could do without skimmer. But not without dsb, sump(surface skimming, aeration, stong random currents from scwd) and the refugium. Tank with no dsb, no skimmer(aeration), low flow, no refugium = algae and bad water quality. Come to think of it I do have a bit of gadgets.

 

[ahenson]

I thought of better way to explain. I have had Remora skimmer and the algae stopped the skimmer almost completly. I bought ES-3 Euro and it shuts off the algae. I did fine with the Remora producing nothing. I didn't like the refugium going downhill so I shut the skimmer off often.

 

[Curtswearing]

I see why you did what you did. I would prefer not to have the macroalgae and empty that big Euroreef but you are also keeping your fuge for entertainment value. I can certainly respect that. I used to spend a lot of time looking into my fuge.

The way it sounds to me is that your Remora was underpowered for your bioload but you were able to even it out somewhat by the use of macroalgae export. The Euroreef was probably just what you needed but it involved noise and you liked the looks of your fuge.

I personally don't feel that feeding natural foods offers much benefit over just feeding the fish blender mush and letting their fish poo provide proper food for the coral (it's like a multi-vitaman...it gives everything needed in one small package). However, you like to watch your fuge so it works great for you.

There's a lot of good comments on this thread. The reason this topic interested me was because I often see threads stating they are replicating a reef. Then they put sand, macroalgaes, mangroves, etc. in the tank (or in the system). None of those things exist near most reef dwelling corals. There are a few species of LPS and softies that live on sand inside a lagoon but not many. For good measure they might combine fish and other corals that don't live on the reef and put them together in a small nutrient laden glass box and say, "they have created a reef". Because a skimmer is only replicating nature, they want to take it out because it isn't "natural". However, neither are glass walls LOL!!! We cannot replicate 100% water changes of tides, periodic upwellings, etc. which exists on a reef. I think it's impossible.

What does everyone else think?

 

[ahenson]

Well said.

 

[reedman]

I think we can heat the tank in the summer like el nino and cause coral bleaching like nature LOL.

I think people need to think about this differently. We strive to create an environment that is as close to what nature provides as possible. The means you use to get there don't have to natural at all (IMHO). The end result should be an environment that mimicks nature as closely as possible and that is useable for you.

Even putting NSW in your tank won't provide a natural tank.

 

[mojoreef]

Agreed Reed. Also a skimmer mimics the natural action of waves air rating the reef, also the foam it produces naturally on the surf and the beach. UV's mimic the intence sunlight at the surface of reefs, and so on and so on.


Mike

 

[MikeS]

It is funy how these systems are called natural, lol. IMHO thier is nothing natural about them at all.

I agree. Both the natural reef and the ecosystems we create in our tank have water in them, after that the similarites end IMO :lol: ....all our equipment and practices are intended to mimic what happens in nature, but we really cannot duplicate it...

MikeS