Let's Talk About ~Algae Control~

[Krish]

It might be easier to use a macro algae in the sump, and harvest it, instead of introducing a nuisance to the system. You could make a box out of eggcrate and keep some chaeto in it, so it doesn't get sucked up by your pumps (your sump isn't sectioned off right?).

Well, it is 3 chambers. The first chamber spills over on to the second chamber (which has a drip tray and the bio-balls) then it flows underneath the bio-ball chamber, through a sponge into the return chamber. I can get it to work without having to remove the bio-balls and probably provide lighting from the side if, that is possible and lighting doesn't have to come from above..

 

[wave98]

Hi Nikki, This will sound like a BB VS Substrate "spark or spear", but it isn't. I am really just curious.

Here's another question I'd like some opinions on, as I think it pertains to my tank. We've all been told to go slow with a reef tank...slow is better. Can you go too slow? Would not providing enough competition for the algae allow it to grow crazy? I went slow with my tank.....really slow - one fish at a time, no corals, yet I had uncontrollable algae. Granted, I had my skimmer break mid cycle/curing rock, so I had more nutrients than I would have liked for 2 months before a new skimmer was sent out. But, it has been proposed to me that I went too slow, so the algae was able to take hold due to lack of any significant competition (no corals, one fish, snails - in a 120)?

Uncontrolable algae heh? How many snails, and "no crabs"? What do you mean by "competition"? Are you talking about competition for the Nitrate and P, like Xenias, clams, algae ( micro, macro ), corals, or something else? :?:

Yeah, I missed it ( sorry ), are you running BB, or substrate? Anyway, going slow does not avoid Nitrate, and how you avoid ( process ) nitrate differs between BB and substrate systems.

The skimmer breakdown would be especially problematic for BB. This sounds like a BB. ( and no crabs? ) The tank is going to work out fine regardless. Actually, if you can keep the algae from blooming, to the point of creating it's own little microcosism on the "surfaces" ( whatever they are ), then at least whatever else is competing for that surface has a better chance. :idea:

Going slow, would probably pertain more to a reef tank that was using substrate, I would think, and by all means, chew up the algae with crabs and snails, so you can get it to that skimmer that broke down ( or better yet, the one that didn't )! Your flow here?

Well, that's my 13 cents, and it's only an opinion. In the long run it shouldn't make much difference, ecpecially for BB.

Happy reef keeping! > Wave98

 

[acrylic_300]

I'm new and I know that these janitors have an In and Out hole.

This may sound naive, but all the energy they are using? Where does the fuel for this energy come from?

Hermit crabs spend a lot of energy. I would think that if you are not feeding them they could only help. Unless they die.

 

[wave98]

I'm new and I know that these janitors have an In and Out hole.

This may sound naive, but all the energy they are using? Where does the fuel for this energy come from?

Hermit crabs spend a lot of energy. I would think that if you are not feeding them they could only help. Unless they die.

If you feed your fish, the "janitors" should have adequate food. If you have "too many" janitors, some will die from starvation, but you will have an equalibrium. Keep your tank stable, and progress slowly, your creatures will be happier for it.

> Wave98

 

[Krish]

I just wanted to say that I thought this post was dead as it has been stationary for a while now. I see you're back in business, Wave98, as this thread is right up your alley(LOL). No more crazy debates that end up in arguments again now! (LOL)

 

[wave98]

I just wanted to say that I thought this post was dead as it has been stationary for a while now. I see you're back in business, Wave98, as this thread is right up your alley(LOL). No more crazy debates that end up in arguments again now! (LOL)

I see that my favorite fish is no longer your Avatar. I'm sure you have helped "Acrylic300" immensely. > Wave98

 

[Krish]

I see that my favorite fish is no longer your Avatar.

Yeah, I got rid of him for our good for nothing flag so I can disguise myself. (LOL)

I'm sure you have helped "Acrylic300" immensely. > Wave98

Thanks man...Always willing to help!

 

[Scooterman]

Hermits are busy creatures for sure, they tend to find food rather quickly, they also seem to suck clean anything they can claw, so food isn't usually a problem with hermits, I think one problem I had was mixing them with other species that would fight to the death lol!

 

[NaH2O]

Sorry for not getting to these questions before

Uncontrolable algae heh? How many snails, and "no crabs"? What do you mean by "competition"? Are you talking about competition for the Nitrate and P, like Xenias, clams, algae (micro, macro), corals, or something else? :?:

I had snails....a nice variety of snails, in a good number. Yes, I am refering to anything that would compete for the nutrients....corals, macro algaes (short term, as I'm not a huge macro fan, maybe with the exception of chaeto). When the algae would die back, the bacteria would be there to help clean it up, and grow in number to process it. Once the die back of algae was cleaned up, then the bacterial population would die back for lack of enough food source, and then the algae would be right there to help remove the available nutrients from the dead bacteria. Make sense? If there was something else in there competeing for those available nutrients, then the algae explosions may not have been so severe. If I had a good algae eating fish in there, too, then it would also pose as some competition. for the algae.....same concept as what you say later in the post about the snail and crab waste. Chew up the algae and remove the waste.

Yeah, I missed it (sorry), are you running BB, or substrate? Anyway, going slow does not avoid Nitrate, and how you avoid (process) nitrate differs between BB and substrate systems.

Yes, I have a BB tank. After the initial cycle was over, it took several weeks, but my nitrates did go down to zero, and I've had undetectable nitrates ever since.

The skimmer breakdown would be especially problematic for BB. This sounds like a BB. (and no crabs?) The tank is going to work out fine regardless. Actually, if you can keep the algae from blooming, to the point of creating it's own little microcosism on the "surfaces" (whatever they are), then at least whatever else is competing for that surface has a better chance. :idea:

Yes, I imagine so. BB tanks are real time. Make poor mistakes regarding husbandry (or broken skimmer), and it will be obvious right away. So, since my skimmer was broken, I suspect the live rock was doing alot of work, and when the cycle was over.....the short photoperiod began, and it was party time for the algae. BTW - I do have a very small number of scarlet hermits and a couple of emerald crabs. I like to keep the crabs in small numbers.

Going slow, would probably pertain more to a reef tank that was using substrate, I would think, and by all means, chew up the algae with crabs and snails, so you can get it to that skimmer that broke down ( or better yet, the one that didn't )! Your flow here?

I have a lot of flow. Ampmaster 3000 on a closed loop controlled side to side with a motorized ball valve. So the flow is only coming out of 4 outputs at a time. Detritus is kept into suspension very well, and the coast to coast overflow does a great job skimming the surface.

If you feed your fish, the "janitors" should have adequate food. If you have "too many" janitors, some will die from starvation, but you will have an equalibrium.

Yes, I agree. acrylic_300 - I wouldn't try and feed your janitors directly, as they will always find an available food source. When I feed my tang algae on the clip, some snails make their way to the clip and feed, too.

 

[wave98]

When the algae would die back, the bacteria would be there to help clean it up, and grow in number to process it. Once the die back of algae was cleaned up, then the bacterial population would die back for lack of enough food source, and then the algae would be right there to help remove the available nutrients from the dead bacteria. Make sense? If there was something else in there competeing for those available nutrients, then the algae explosions may not have been so severe. If I had a good algae eating fish in there, too, then it would also pose as some competition. for the algae.....same concept as what you say later in the post about the snail and crab waste. Chew up the algae and remove the waste.

Yes, it does make sense, and the skimmer problem certainly wasn't helping.

Yes, I have a BB tank. After the initial cycle was over, it took several weeks, but my nitrates did go down to zero, and I've had undetectable nitrates ever since.

So the "algae( bloom ) cycle" is reduced, or gone now as well?

Yes, I imagine so. BB tanks are real time. Make poor mistakes regarding husbandry (or broken skimmer), and it will be obvious right away. So, since my skimmer was broken, I suspect the live rock was doing alot of work, and when the cycle was over.....the short photoperiod began, and it was party time for the algae. BTW - I do have a very small number of scarlet hermits and a couple of emerald crabs. I like to keep the crabs in small numbers.

I agree on the real time, and maybe a bit touchier earlier on, but now you're settled in?

I probably have too many crabs in mine, by mistake, and some may die off, as I get my P under control. Hopefully I can transfer some to the larger "fuge" soon and not lose too many.

I have a lot of flow. Ampmaster 3000 on a closed loop controlled side to side with a motorized ball valve. So the flow is only coming out of 4 outputs at a time. Detritus is kept into suspension very well, and the coast to coast overflow does a great job skimming the surface.

Sounds like a nice system, and now you have a much better skimmer?

Give us an update, you should have much less concern about going slow now.

> Wave98

 

[pondguy]

Ok, I've been reading this thread now for an hour or so looking for help with a hugh string algae problem that I have. I have a 220g that use to be the start of a reef tank until the algae took over and killed all my corals. I have tried everything to get it under control with no effect. I had a Kole tang, hippo tang, Des. Sailfin tang, yellow tang, purple tang, emperor angel, grey angel, hundreds of snails and drabs, clown fish and a lawnmower blenny, none of these with the exception of the blenny seemed to do anything at all for the algae problem. This then led me to physical removal. I took a clear vinyl hose and attached a filter bag to one end and used the other end as a vacuum. I then vacuumed the algae off the rocks and it would travel thru the tubing down into the bag and the water would then return to my sum, seemed like a great way to remove the algea without having to mix up new salt for a water change. This is where the real problem lies. After doing this the first time the next day the yellow tang was found dead. I didn't think too much of it, just a bad luck. So a couple of weeks later I did the same thing and low and behold the hippo and kole tang died. I figured it had to do with the removal of the algae, so the next time I decide to only clean a quarter of the tank at one time, what do you know, the grey angel dies. So I quit that idea and just continued with the water changes and wow, the clown fish are all dead. I am left with the purple tang, sailfin and emporer angel. I am terrified of doing any sort of water change or removal of algae in fear that the rest of my fish are going to croak. The algae is as crazy as ever and I need help, the wife is complaining that I need to get rid of the tank because it is so ugly to look at. I am a few days away from turning it into a discus tank or something. Please help me with the croaking fish syndrum

 

[NaH2O]

Hmm...that's really strange. Is string algae the same as hair algae? Have you used the filter sock any other time on the tank, or only the times when you lost fish? Do you have a skimmer? How are your water parameters? What other filtration do you have on the tank? What is left in the tank right now?

 

[pondguy]

yes, the string algae is hair algae, you will have to bear with me, I construct ponds for a living and string algae is a big problem with them. Yes, I have a skimmer, although it is not big enough. I am looking for a good diy skimmer that i can build. Yes, it seems that every time I clean with the filter sock, although it is not the same sock everytime, a fish dies. The parameters are good. The tank is plumbed with 2-1" bulheads that feed a 55gal sump under the tank. In the sump is live rock, carbon and prefilter pads for the uv and skimmer pumps. The tank itself has about 150lb of lr and a 2" sb. What is left is a juvinile emperor angel, he seems to be in the changing stages, a purple tang, des. sailfin tang, lawnmower blenny, coral banded shrimp and numerous snails and crabs. I need help! Why are fish dying? Will this happen again if I change the water?

 

[wave98]

yes, the string algae is hair algae, you will have to bear with me, I construct ponds for a living and string algae is a big problem with them.?

> I would be very careful about claiming that "string algae" is the same thing as "hair algae", in the reefkeeping "nomenclature".

I have had both. Crabs and snails eat hair algae, but they won't touch "string algae", or the "hair algae" that is growing in "it".

If this is a mistake I'll be happy to "grovel" in the extreme.

> barryhc

 

[MikeS]

Snails and Crabs....

So often these are introduced as "algae control".....but they really don't.

The benefits of such creatures when it comes to algae problems is mostly appearence-wise IMO. These animals can reduce the amount of unsightly alage in the tank at any given time by eating it...but realistically, they do little to solve the underlying problem. At best, a cleanup crew reduces the nutient level in your system by maybe 10-15%. The other 85-90% of the nutrients they consume are getting put right back into the system. On the whole, this does little for the underlying problem.

It's all about export...to solve these problems, these nutrients need to be exported before they can be used by algaes and such. Bacteria play a role, but the more you can remove to start with by mechanical means, ie water changes, skimming, carbon, ect...the better off you will be...

MikeS

 

[Krish]

Thank you Mike...Finally someone serious on this forum who isn't playing around tonight!(LOL) I agree totally with what you are saying, but many will know better, but still keep their clean up crew. I feel that appearance, in most cases, are of most importance to the hobbist than what is actually good. Once eveything looks fine and dandy and all rocks are clean of algae, then we feel like we've accomplished successfully keeping our tanks stable, but we are only fooling ourselves. A cleanup crew IMO, is just something you add to your tank when you have company coming over and you want to show them how good your tanks looks. Some may disagree and beat me down for it, but that is just the way I feel. Yeah, I will add a snail or 2 and maybe a crab or 2 just for some diversity (or to control some nuicance worm or other critter), but otherwise, I'd rather keep my water space for fish which to me, are actually more attractive. I think, like you said Mike, nutrient export is the key...Bottom line. There should be no need to substitute something in place of what is not natural like a clean up crew when it comes to nutrient export. Just my thoughts

 

[wave98]

Snails and Crabs....

So often these are introduced as "algae control".....but they really don't.

The benefits of such creatures when it comes to algae problems is mostly appearence-wise IMO. These animals can reduce the amount of unsightly alage in the tank at any given time by eating it...but realistically, they do little to solve the underlying problem. At best, a cleanup crew reduces the nutient level in your system by maybe 10-15%. The other 85-90% of the nutrients they consume are getting put right back into the system. On the whole, this does little for the underlying problem.

It's all about export...to solve these problems, these nutrients need to be exported before they can be used by algaes and such. Bacteria play a role, but the more you can remove to start with by mechanical means, ie water changes, skimming, carbon, ect...the better off you will be...

MikeS

Boy you guys are really slow! I have stated over and over again, that crabs and snails, while they do remove that 10-15% of nutrient load, are far more valuable for keeping the other 85% of that load, up in the water column, for skimming, and keeping cyano and hair algae, off of the surface of your substrate ( and you rocks ), so that "they" ( the cyano etc. ) do not create its own micro environment, and therefore choke the substrate from its denitrification capabilities.

 

[MikeS]

Don't get me wrong...a cleanup crew isn't totally useless, they do use up some nutrients in metabolisim, and they make the tank look better, as well as adding some interesting creatures to look at, but it must all be put into perspective. These animals are but a link in the chain ...I just so often see them recommended as a "cure" to algae problems, when this simply isn't the case...

MikeS

 

[Krish]

If you are more interested in jokes, then why not stick with Jiddy, and stop being ludicrous with your "supposed comments of technical interest".

I was actually quite serious in my post and find it quite funny how you thought I was playing and how you get so offensive when anything you think is right is contradicted. If you kept good conditions in your tank from the start and did everything right in the beginning, then you wouldn't need useless critters to do the work for you which you failed to do in the beginning! If cyno etc are controlled from the get go they why add critters? Obviously something went wrong in your system why you rely on them so much. Listen, I live near the water and observe the reefs endlessly. You don't see crabs and snails everywhere if ever. The only place you see them (if ever you want to collect them) is on the side of rocks at low tide. The sand has no algae and the reefs have no nuicance algae...Why? Definately not because of the critters. Critters were probably introduced to the hobby to help people keep nuicance algae less visible for people who don't know a thing about nutrient export. I don't know much about saltwater systems as I am still learning, but I definatley ain't stupid and look at what is imitated right before my eyes in nature...Try it sometimes...You'll be surprised!

 

[wave98]

Don't get me wrong...a cleanup crew isn't totally useless, they do use up some nutrients in metabolisim, and they make the tank look better, as well as adding some interesting creatures to look at, but it must all be put into perspective. These animals are but a link in the chain ...I just so often see them recommended as a "cure" to algae problems, when this simply isn't the case...

MikeS

You know full well Mike, that I hate "magic bullets" more than anyone else, we've been through this too many times.

And It's Krish that is really getting his "own goat" here. You might want to look up some "Boomer quotes", since you don't have anything meaningful to say yourself. > Go for it, I'm back "in business"! Wave98