Let's Talk About ~Algae Control~

[wave98]

.3 phosphate, 20 nitrate, - - lots of crabs and snails > no algae ( still working on the nitrate )

 

[Scooterman]

What I find odd is that we take purified water, put it in a big trash can then we add salt, P and what ever else is it that bucket we got at the LFS. Having a spare canister filter with carbon and rowa/phosban to be used as the mixing pump does a good job of removing the unwanted junk from the salt mix.
Don

Ahh this is something I think would work wonders maybe, filter the water after being mixed up, maybe even skim it, UV, carbon, also use ro/di to clean your bucket/tub etc. another words purify your salt mix once mixed together.

 

[Woodstock]

Hummm... I think algae is more prevelant in newer tanks for several reasons. Since most sand & rock is loaded with nutrients and even the newly made salt water has some levels of ammonia/phosphates; these nutrients, along with the fact that most newer tanks don't have any organisms (corals, macro algae, bacteria, etc) yet to absorb them, creates a great nursery for the quick growing micro algeas to thrive. With a little time, more competiion, heavy skimming/diterus removal, and the continued use of ro/di will slowly lower the nutrient levels and starve out the micro nusiance algaes.

 

[gman0526]

In my experience on established tanks the major cause for algae blooms is overfeeding/overstocking and innadecuate water flow. Basically poor husbandry. On new setups other than overfeeding by new hobbyists, I think that the misconception of the term "cured rock" given by LFS/vendors to their product, in my opinion all newlly purchased rock should be quarantined and "recycled" b4 being placed in the tank. Not to mention the array of unnecessary chemical products newbies are sold by LFS that wreak havoc on the stability of a new system.

 

[wave98]

. I have a 27 gal. hex tank with 6" of substrate on a plenum and a very high bioload. I am jumping on with Jiddy here regarding snails and crabs. Phosphate is at .3 and nitrate at 20 ppm. I am running 96 watt pc's which is a lot shy for the "sps", but "boy" can they grow a lot of algae!

. The tank should be growing a lot of algae here - - and it is, but you can't find any in the tank! The crabs and snails keep it scoured clean.

. Now I realize that snails and crabs have two holes, and this quite obviously why I am having to fight a bit with P and nitrate.

. But how much algae can these critters actually deal with? w-e-l-l-l, I had about 10 lbs. of live rock until about 3 mos. ago( the tank is 7 mos. old and no help from existing tanks ). Then I added about 23 lbs. of nice fresh ("real fresh") live rock. No rock is so fresh that you don't quarantine it and "cure" it, so into a walmart tub it went with new saltwater, heater, powerhead and pc lighting(24/7).

. Now with no snails or crabs in the tub, I let the rock "develop" for 1 week. there was no noticable microalgae on the rock when i recieved it, but after a week I was having a hard time still seeing the sponges and macro algae on the rock because of dense 1" thick hair algae. So, not wanting to lose those, I "took the plunge" and just took a 5# hunk and put it in the tank( pretty gutsy here I must say!).

. Lo and behold, two days later that rock was 95% clean, so into the tank with another one. Boy was my little blue hippo tang happy! One week later the 23 #'s were "all in" and 95% clean. Another week later and no micro algae at all. Absolutely none!

. It has been about three moths now and conditions are the same - - No Algae. Of course, I still have the P and nitrate as previously stated and the comments by others in this forum and thread about controlling these parameters are as valid as ever.

. Still, I have lps, sps, xenia, zoas, a very happy star polyp colony and five 1 1/4" fish in this tank along with two large brittle stars and two peppermint shrimp, and they are very happy ( the sps want more light ). S-o-o-o, the composition of the water with it's elememts and compounds is still very important here and I am learning a lot about how to control them from the gracious input of the members, and thank you all so much!

. Let's consider the whole bio-culture here and see what combinations are particularly effective.

. Sorry, even as long as this post is( I do apologize ), I must add that I AM Skimming with a crummy SeaClone that isn't doing a whole lot. I will fix that soon somehow. Of more importance though, I do have all of my rock supported above the substrate by at least 2" on only three "small but tall" coral rocks, and I am running about 20 times tank volume through the overflow and widely dispersed return. I don't ever have any detritus in the tank that you can find( visually ).

. This is a great thread, so jump in and tell us how it's done!

Wave98

 

[DonW]

Wave98,

It sound like youve found a way to make some good lawn fertilizer. Think about it this way. If it wasnt salt water you could water your lawn with your tank water and the grass would grow like mad. You would then need to buy a goat to keep up with mowing the lawn. Looks great for awhile until all the goat crap and urine start inhibiting even the growth of the lawn. The fertilized water continues to pile on unused fertilizer, the dirts ph falls below 7 and becomes acidic its alkalinity also falls to almost nothing. Then and even the weeds no longer grow and you have nice patch of dirt. Needless to say the goat dies and all the lime in the city isnt going to help your lawn. The dirt will have to be hauled away and replace so that you can start the cycle all over.
Seems like a odd analogy but in fact this is exactly what is going on in your tank. Most people just call it a tank crash.

Don

 

[JasonD]

Just remember they have a in hole and a out hole thus supplimenting new algae growth. You still need to get it out to the sewer.

Don

Crabs and snails eat algae, they poop, corals eat poop, uneaten poop grows more algae = a tank with the appearance of little algae and happy corals (for me). Regular water changes, good lighting and flow is a must, refugium with razor calurpa (no skimmer). I mostly have soft corals and lps. I have a few sps frags that look like they are doing well, based on their color (I have only had them for 4 months, so the jury is still out). I have not ran another system, so I can not compare. It sounds like sps thrive in a system with less pollutants (I am sure other corals do too). I have ran 4 tanks this way. 3 out of 4 of the tanks had very little algae or maintenance problems. I never could get my 180 gallon going (I think I needed better flow. Sold it instead of investing more $.) When ever I test my water I have 0 nitrates (maybe my test kit is broken ). I don't have a phosphate test yet. I don't have a skimmer, don't have any fancy equipment (other than halide lighting/pc's and pumps), and I do no dosing, but yet I have a tank full of beautiful corals. I have also fragged/grown and sold more ($ worth of) corals than I have purchased. I have had very little coral loss. I suffered my first major loss recently. My anthelia crashed. I was shocked because I have had this coral for a two years and have grown and sold (for store credit at LFS's) nearly a 100 full sized corals. Sorry for my simple and ignorant statements. I am sure a few years down the road I will have all the fancy equipment. So when I pop open my cabinet, it will look something like popping open the hood of a new corvette (instead of hamster running on a wheel )

Oh yeah another thing on hair algae, it does not seem to grow on rocks that are covered in coralline algae.

 

[wave98]

Sorry Don:

It seems that I didn't give you enough information. You are right about fertilizer though and the salt won't help on a golf green either.
I did not buy the goat though, he was already there. There wasn't any grass either. I bought some rocks to decorate the yard and grass started growing on them.
I felt obligated to let the goat eat it and he did!

PH has been at 8.2 for 6 mos. and I don't dose for it.
Alkalinity is high at 4 Meq/l, and I don't dose that either.
There is no "cyano" or detritus in the tank. In other words, the goat poop is being removed by skimming and mechanical means. I have a good ways to go here and I am working on it.
I do not advocate excessive levels of P or nitrate or anything else in my tank or anyone elses tank. That is why I stated the unreasonably high levels at the beginning of the post.
This thread was started to discuss ways to control algae. Removal is one method along with many others, and crabs and snails do a remarkable job of that.
I offered at the end of the post for more experienced reefers to keep us informed about the other possibilities. S-o-o-o?
There are many exceedingly knowledgeable and reliable "authorities" and professionals in the reefkeeping "industry" ( or hobby ) that recognize substrate, microfauna, infauna, livestock, skimming, all sorts of other gadgets, and yes, even "critters", as being among the available avenues to pursue in the "art of reefkeeping".

. If you want to keep your "yard" really "neat", you can slide a quarter acre of glass under it, and put a mouse on it just so you have something to do.
. Wave98

 

[MikeS]

Hummm... I think algae is more prevelant in newer tanks for several reasons. Since most sand & rock is loaded with nutrients and even the newly made salt water has some levels of ammonia/phosphates; these nutrients, along with the fact that most newer tanks don't have any organisms (corals, macro algae, bacteria, etc) yet to absorb them, creates a great nursery for the quick growing micro algeas to thrive. With a little time, more competiion, heavy skimming/diterus removal, and the continued use of ro/di will slowly lower the nutrient levels and starve out the micro nusiance algaes.

This is definately a contributor...high nutrients from various sources vs. bacteria population in a new tank...

On new setups other than overfeeding by new hobbyists, I think that the misconception of the term "cured rock" given by LFS/vendors to their product, in my opinion all newlly purchased rock should be quarantined and "recycled" b4 being placed in the tank. Not to mention the array of unnecessary chemical products newbies are sold by LFS that wreak havoc on the stability of a new system.

Good points George...especially on the chemical additives, can definatley be a contributor...I still see algae blooms in my new tanks, and I don't do the additive thing, so I still think the main driver behind it is the high level of bacterial flux a new tank goes through as it "establishes" itself...one can definately worsen the situation however by doing some of the things you mentioned....

. I have a 27 gal. hex tank with 6" of substrate on a plenum and a very high bioload. I am jumping on with Jiddy here regarding snails and crabs. Phosphate is at .3 and nitrate at 20 ppm. I am running 96 watt pc's which is a lot shy for the "sps", but "boy" can they grow a lot of algae!

On the PC's....I don't buy into the theroy that they contribute greatly to algae blooms, unless of course they are aged bulbs....light, while a contributing and necessary factor, is IMO a secondary contributor to algae problems in the tank, I think nutrients definately play the primary role here. Bad lighting can be the proverbial "straw that breaks the camels back". The nutrients have to be in the system to start with. I've had algae blooms with brand new VHO's...it's a nutrient thing primarily...

. Now I realize that snails and crabs have two holes, and this quite obviously why I am having to fight a bit with P and nitrate

Right...I have heard estimates (and they make sense to me) that your crabs and snails are only going to give you a 10-15% overall reduction in nutrient load (ie nutrients they actually use) when compared to the amount going in. This is based on the concept that you are not feeding these animals directly, they are feeding on the leftovers from the fish/corals and algae in the tank. So, I don't think, unless of course, you are feeding them in excess of what you normaly would without them, they are a major contributor, they do lower the overall levels. The problem lies if you overfeed the tank because they are there, assuming they will pick up the slack, so to speak (which I believe many have a tendancy to do).

MikeS

 

[wave98]

MikeS:

Thanks for your reply.

. I agree with you entirely about the lights and the nutrients. I was only saying that they are less than adequate for the sps in the tank, and that the tremendous and immediate reduction of hair algae in the tank was from the crabs and snails, and not from any lack of light.
. I have been exceedingly stingy with the feeding in this tank, specificly in order to help reduce the "nutrients".
. My skimming is very poor but not nonexistant with my crummy "seaclone" which be replaced fairly soon, and my 450 gph in the main tank is just swirling around in the walmart tub below with an old rock and an inch of arragonite that I just happened to have left over.
. Not really a refugium here, just another 16 gal. of water and some good flow in the main tank. I am in the process of designing a refugium to DIY and replace it. It will need a lot less flow thru the refugium portion, say 90 gph or so.
. My real interest here is in building the refugium and what substrate( or sand etc.) I should use there as well as the macroalgaes that are safest to grow and will promote "pod production" to use for food. Maybe I could throw some in the garbage every once in a while or give it away and get a bit of nutrient reduction "to boot".
. By the way Mike, I noticed that you are looking into substrates for your new aquarium and plenum. You are right about the anoxic zone, which is of the most benefit in a plenum system, whereas the anearobic zone is where the real nasties come from like cyanobacteria and sulfides.
. You don't need that coarse of a gravel to do this however. Waterflow in the column isn't going to do it for you in the substrtate till you hit about 8mm,
and then it's not a plenum anymore anyway. 1.7 to 3mm will do well in the 6 inches you're talking about, and with good flow in the column you won't collect hardly any detritus there either. Just add some small snails and crabs and you won't collect any detritus at the "sand-gravel" surface.

. Good luck and happy reefing Wave98

 

[MikeS]

MikeS:

Thanks for your reply.

. I agree with you entirely about the lights and the nutrients. I was only saying that they are less than adequate for the sps in the tank, and that the tremendous and immediate reduction of hair algae in the tank was from the crabs and snails, and not from any lack of light.

yeah, that's what I figured you meant...just clarifying...

. My skimming is very poor but not nonexistant with my crummy "seaclone" which be replaced fairly soon, and my 450 gph in the main tank is just swirling around in the walmart tub below with an old rock and an inch of arragonite that I just happened to have left over.

you may want to consider removing the rock and aragonite from the sump, if your LR in the main tank alone is meeting your nitrifiying needs, than this additional material is simply adding to your nitrate problem...make the sump water only...ie the "dilution solution..."

. My real interest here is in building the refugium and what substrate( or sand etc.) I should use there as well as the macroalgaes that are safest to grow and will promote "pod production" to use for food. Maybe I could throw some in the garbage every once in a while or give it away and get a bit of nutrient reduction "to boot".

Same as above...if the LR in your main tank is adequately meeting nittrifying demands, then additional material will usually only increase the rate of nitrate production in the tank, which can fuel undesireable algae. Macroalgaes...now there's a whole new ballgame there, with its own set of pros and cons...

.

. By the way Mike, I noticed that you are looking into substrates for your new aquarium and plenum. You are right about the anoxic zone, which is of the most benefit in a plenum system, whereas the anearobic zone is where the real nasties come from like cyanobacteria and sulfides.

Cyano is a real survivor,( its one of the most ancient lifeforms on the planet) it's always present in your tank and it is able to survive some serious environmental extremes. I've had it in FO tanks with very shallow substrates, as well as tanks with deep substrates...it's always there, it's just waiting for some N and P to get it going... :lol: Sulfides can occur in many differnt areas as well, it all depends on what is happening biologically speaking...

.

. You don't need that coarse of a gravel to do this however. Waterflow in the column isn't going to do it for you in the substrtate till you hit about 8mm,
and then it's not a plenum anymore anyway. 1.7 to 3mm will do well in the 6 inches you're talking about, and with good flow in the column you won't collect hardly any detritus there either. Just add some small snails and crabs and you won't collect any detritus at the "sand-gravel" surface.

Perhaps not...most plenum advocates recommend a 2-4mm substrate...however, after discussing it with many others, I feel a slightly more coarse substrate (3-5mm) will work just as well and provide some marked benefits...the aerobic-anoxic-anerobic zone will defiantely still be present, but the coarser substrate will facilitate greater diffusion rates into the substrate mechanically speaking via flow...ie less reliance on "critters"...snails and crabs die... After 5 years of DSB, I'm very interested in a substrate that does not rely greatly on critters for diffusion. And really, 3-5mm is not nearly as coarse as it sounds...a 5mm particle is not that much larger in diameter than a BB....

MikeS

 

[Jiddy]

Sorry, i havent read this last few big post, i get headaches, lol, so if this has already been mentions, opps sorry

Isnt saying that snails dont solve your algae problem like saying, mowing your yard doesnt solve your grass problem?

Just curious cuz good old Gary M is tryin to flame me on RC about snails over the internet and nows hes pullin rabbits out his hat

 

[MikeS]

Sorry, i havent read this last few big post, i get headaches, lol, so if this has already been mentions, opps sorry

Isnt saying that snails dont solve your algae problem like saying, mowing your yard doesnt solve your grass problem?

Just curious cuz good old Gary M is tryin to flame me on RC about snails over the internet and nows hes pullin rabbits out his hat

Depends on what you are talking about...will snails help remove unsightly algae from the tank and make it appear better? Yes...
Will snails help address the underlying problem that is causing the algae in the first place? No.

Snails are simply another link in the nutrient chain. They "mow the lawn" so to speak, but they do not really significantly decrease the nutrient levels in the tank that are causing the algae in the first place...

what's he flaming you about?

MikeS

 

[Woodstock]

The key word is "export" not 'recycle'. If you followed every snail around and cleaned it's poopie immediately, then tehy would serve as an export; otherwise they are only recycling (changing the form of the nitrAte/po4 from green to brown ). Yes, they are eating/removing the algae but their poopie, if not removed quickly, will simply disolve and feed the next generation of algae.

 

[NaH2O]

For sure, when dealing with new tanks, bacterial fluctuations combined with the loaded nutrients and you've got yourself an algae party. As bacteria tries to get itself into an equilibrium, there will be die offs, which lead to the bacteria releasing its bound nutrients and the algae come in and feast on the leftovers. I think the bacteria fluxes are a big part of the algae cycles. Not enough bacteria to break down decaying organics?....algae will be there to pick up the slack. Not enough decaying organics to support the bacteria populations?.....bacteria populations then die back, and the algae are there to use up the bound nutrients. Once the tank becomes stabilized, then the algae cycles slow and eventually aren't the plague porportions that a new tank is, unless there is some type of stress event in the tank.....then you could be looking at a new cycle of algaes.

As noted in the thread so far, phosphates are one contributor to algae growth. There have been some sources listed for phosphates early on in the thread. Let's try and list them out a bit, so we can take a look at how many big inputs of phosphate we have, and how to limit them. Reducing our phosphate inputs is one method to help control algae. What do you think are big phosphate inputs?

 

[NaH2O]

The key word is "export" not 'recycle'. If you followed every snail around and cleaned it's poopie immediately, then tehy would serve as an export; otherwise they are only recycling (changing the form of the nitrAte/po4 from green to brown ). Yes, they are eating/removing the algae but their poopie, if not removed quickly, will simply disolve and feed the next generation of algae.

I also wanted to comment a bit on this. For my tank, and BB systems, exporting/nutrient removal is an important part in keeping wastes and detritus from accumulating and fouling water quality, which can lead to algae problems. That's one reason why proper flow placement is so important....keeping detritus in suspension to be used by inhabitants, and/or picked up by other filtration methods. However, recycling is also a method used by some DSB users. There isn't anything wrong really with recycling wastes, IMO, it is just a matter of understanding how it works, and what will eventually happen when the litter box is full. BB systems you are dealing with real time algae.....you screw up, the algae will show you right away. DSB, you screw up, then you might not see it for awhile.

 

[MikeS]

Reducing our phosphate inputs is one method to help control algae. What do you think are big phosphate inputs?

Well, as I'm sure it was stated above somewhere, food and water are two big ones. Food...well, you have to feed your fish (if you have them) so this one is pretty inevitable...but one can avoid overfeeding and help limit it that way.

Water...RO/DI or other phosphate free water is a must, especially if your primary means of phosphate control is water changes.

Salt...some salt mixes have phosphates...try to find one that doesn't....

Aragonite sands and crushed coral substrates...these substrates are usually saturated with phosphates from run-off right out of the bag...

MikeS

 

[Scooterman]

To add to MikeS, you also need to consider LR, I'm sure it hold plenty of P!
Ok, my question/thoughts on overfeeding.
Fishes need a diet but how much is really too much other than them just not eating any more. I found shortly after doing wc the next few days algae breaks out, I'm guessing IO like any other salts really do add to the fuel for algae's.

 

[NaH2O]

Scooterman - hope you're hanging in there with the weather!!!

The only thing I can think of with a salt that doesn't have P, would be a chemical swing of some kind resulting in a small amount of die-off.....which would fuel an algae break-out.

Another source of P would be Calcium Reactor media. In another thread dgasmd pointed out that he runs his calcium reactor effluent through a phosphate remover. I think that's a great idea to help limit the P input to a tank.

MikeS - you pointed out try to find a salt without P....I thought salts either contain P or N, so are you trading one for the other? But, dealing with N might be the easier choice?

 

[Scooterman]

Scooterman - hope you're hanging in there with the weather!!!

Missed us by a nose but those poor people in New Orleans, bad, just bad news.