Let's Talk About ~Algae Control~

[MikeS]

MikeS - you pointed out try to find a salt without P....I thought salts either contain P or N, so are you trading one for the other? But, dealing with N might be the easier choice?

Many salts, like IO claim to be N and P free....I haven't tested mine in awhile (except for that oceanic salt "soup" I had growing a few months back)....I've got some IO going, I'll test it....

MikeS

 

[NaH2O]

Many salts, like IO claim to be N and P free....I haven't tested mine in awhile (except for that oceanic salt "soup" I had growing a few months back)....I've got some IO going, I'll test it....

MikeS

The last time I tested my IO I didn't get a reading for either, but for some reason I thought I was told that they could be bound with something else and undetectable with our test kits. Don't quote me on that, though :doubt:. What are your thoughts?

 

[wave98]

Aragonite sands and crushed coral substrates...these substrates are usually saturated with phosphates from run-off right out of the bag...

MikeS

Aragonite sand is saturated with phosphate? Sand only, or aragonite in general?
Please elaborate, this is very interesting. - - "Most" sands?

Thanks, Wave98

 

[NaH2O]

Many salts, like IO claim to be N and P free....I haven't tested mine in awhile (except for that oceanic salt "soup" I had growing a few months back)....I've got some IO going, I'll test it....

MikeS

OK - Here is Bingman's study he did showing nutrient content of the various salts. You can see in the chart for Nutrients that the different salts have either P or N in the mix. It would be a matter of which works best for you, but for me, choosing a salt with little to no P is best. Hopefully the bacterial populations in the tank wouldn't have any problem taking care of the N.The Composition of Several Synthetic Seawater Mixes.

 

[Scooterman]

Nikki why didn't he test with all mixes at 35ppt instead of different levels?

 

[NaH2O]

Scott - I think it is because he used an equal dry weight of each mix?

The salinity of near-surface seawater in the tropics is approximately 35 parts per thousand (ppt), so 35 gram samples were dissolved in highly purified water, brought to one liter and analyzed.

The salinities are based on this dry weight mixed with a liter of purified water. I think, this is the best way to ensure you have the same amount of mix per sample. He does say that

All results were adjusted to 35 ppt salinity, a temperature of 25 degrees Celsius (77 degrees Fahrenheit) and a density of 1.023 kilograms per liter (kg/L) for comparison.

 

[Scooterman]

I don't know If I can agree with his method because typically you would add salt mix to the sg desired right? So if that was the case you would mix more or less according to your salt brand, I guess one thing it may not matter because the way he did it they should increase or decrease in a liner fashion so his test would still show the same ratio difference in each brand.

 

[wave98]

Nikki:
Nice link there for salt compositions, Thanks!

There sure is a lot of Po4, and nitrogen compounds shown there for the Seachem version, which I am currently using. I have been battling P and N for some time now ( currently at 15ppm N, and .25ppm P ). Could my salt mix be causing some broblems here to begin with? :?:

Thanks again, . . . Wave98

 

[NaH2O]

Wave98 - it would be a good idea to check your pre-mixed water to see if you have phosphates and nitrates (I'm assuming that is what you are seeing 15 with) prior to your water change. If those results come up negative, then you can do the various spot testing I posted about earlier in the thread. If you find an area with increased results compared to the water column, then you have found a source. Also, depending on the test kit, you may see a difference. A brand like Salifert may give you better results that another brand.

Hope this helps.

Scooterman - the method seemed alright to me, but I guess I never gave it much thought. Maybe Boomer can shed some light on it.

 

[wave98]

Thanks Nikki, I'll follow your pre-mix and spot testing suggestions. Any thoughts about the statement from MikeS about aragonite "sands" being "saturated with phosphate" right out of the bag?

Wave98

 

[Boomer]

Nikki

Yes he did it right. I think Craig (Ph.D in analytical chemistry) knows what he is doing. He use to be the now Randy Homes-Farley. Matter of fact he reviews most of Randy's articles.

A couple of comments

1. SG is not Density

2. All samples need to be adjusted to the same temp and density as per/par reason, which you guys missed

Table I shows the experimentally determined salinity of the various samples, which were prepared by dissolving 35 grams of each sample in water, to give a final volume of 1 liter. The experimental salinity reported was determined by simple summation of all of the experimentally determined concentrations of the major and minor ions in the samples. The observed salinity of all the samples was between 2 to 6 ppt lower than 35 ppt, because all of the mixtures ***contained substantial water of hydration.***

Now look at this again

35 gram samples were dissolved in highly purified water, brought to one liter

But the dry mixes are hydrated, meaning they have water in them, some more water other less water, so you really have more than 1 liter of water in the sample, so you need to adjust for the extra water. You DO NOT to analytical procedures with seawater using SG. SG is not even discussed in chemical oceanography or seawater chemistry books. We use it as it is the best means for us. EC meters are expensive and using a Density hydrometer will put you in La-Lah land will all the corrects.

Yes he could have used a hydrometer, who's, which one, a 15 C, 20 C, 75 F, 77 F, absolute SG ( 4 C) ????. Aaaannnnnnd a ASTM, NIST, everyday regular guy kind or what Density on the other hand is density. D = Mass/ Volume

 

[Scooterman]

I think that answered my question
Thanks

 

[wave98]

depending on the test kit, you may see a difference. A brand like Salifert may give you better results that another brand.

So you like Salifert test kits, as I am finding that many aquarists do. I have been using Seachem kits thus far, for no special reason, but I'm not all that happy with some of them.

Might this be one of the "other" brands, that you think might be less accurate( or difficult to read )?

Thanks again, . . Wave98

 

[DonW]

Thanks Nikki, I'll follow your pre-mix and spot testing suggestions. Any thoughts about the statement from MikeS about aragonite "sands" being "saturated with phosphate" right out of the bag?

Wave98

Araganite will bind P and other organics found in the enviroment from which it was formed. This is why its important to find a way of keeping the ph up in a dsb. Organics build up, Ph goes down, araganite disolves and releases P.

Don

 

[wave98]

Araganite will bind P and other organics found in the enviroment from which it was formed. This is why its important to find a way of keeping the ph up in a dsb. Organics build up, Ph goes down, araganite disolves and releases P.

Don

Thanks Don, does the oxygen level have anything to do with this pH condition in the sand bed? What if any ways are available to keep the pH up in a sand bed?

Thanks again, . . Wave98

 

[DonW]

Thanks Don, does the oxygen level have anything to do with this pH condition in the sand bed? What if any ways are available to keep the pH up in a sand bed?

Thanks again, . . Wave98

Other than nutrient reduction I have no clue. Thats propably a good question for Mojo or Anthony.

Don

 

[wave98]

Other than nutrient reduction I have no clue. Thats propably a good question for Mojo or Anthony.

Don

Well, here's a novel idea. :lol: Keep a good population of snails and crabs in the tank, to keep your visible algae under control.

The really big win on this "concept", is that snails and crabs actually do address the underlying nutrient problem, by keeping unwanted detritus stirred up in the water column, for removal by way of skimming and or mechanical filtraition.

This is of course, not to mention the fact, that they are keeping this detritus out of the substrate to a large degree, and allowing your substrate, therefore, to more effeceintly do it's job. :idea:

Happy reef keeping! . . . Wave98

 

[NaH2O]

Boomer - thanks for jumping in and explaining that....I think I have a basic understanding of it now.

So you like Salifert test kits, as I am finding that many aquarists do. I have been using Seachem kits thus far, for no special reason, but I'm not all that happy with some of them.

Might this be one of the "other" brands, that you think might be less accurate( or difficult to read )?

Thanks again, . . Wave98

Wave - I wouldn't put SeaChem in that category, although I am not familiar with their phosphate or nitrate tests. I do not like Red Sea kits, as I've found them to be somewhat inaccurate. I use the SeaChem Mg test, and don't think it is that bad (they were out of Salifert at the time). Test kit accuracy or how to know a good kit from a bad one might be a good topic for the Chem forum. hmmmm

What if any ways are available to keep the pH up in a sand bed?

I would say to not let it go anaerobic.

The really big win on this "concept", is that snails and crabs actually do address the underlying nutrient problem, by keeping unwanted detritus stirred up in the water column, for removal by way of skimming and or mechanical filtraition.

You have to remember that they poop, too. It is true that their movements will kick up some detritus in their vacinity, but without adequately placed flow, the detritus is going to settle back down.

 

[DonW]

You have to remember that they poop, too. It is true that their movements will kick up some detritus in their vacinity, but without adequately placed flow, the detritus is going to settle back down.

They also breed, thats got to be a funky process since the only thing they do is eat P all day long. They also die. All those baby snails I see every morning are kind of cool but really never live. They just die and relase the P back into the tank.

Don

 

[wave98]

I would say to not let it go anaerobic.
.

Thanks Nikki. That is what I promote in general, and I appreciate your support here.

You have to remember that they poop, too. It is true that their movements will kick up some detritus in their vacinity, but without adequately placed flow, the detritus is going to settle back down.

Well, firstly, they poop out 15% less than they take in, and that is a net benefit. And "boy am I ever" a proponent of proper flow, and nothing, and I say again, nothing, ever settles back down in my tank.

I attribute this to the crabs primarily, as far as getting it disturbed to begin with, and then the proper flow, that is a prerequisite to keeping solids in the water column, for subsequent removal, as well as several other benefits.

Well now DonW, so the only thing that crabs or snails eat is "P". That is a rather interesting statement, to say the least.

Now you say that they breed, and that is bothering you? ( I guess it is just the "funkiness", heh? )

But now then, they die huh? Well they can't release more P when they die than that which they took up while they were alive, unless you are "pumping in" detrivore kits monthly to replace all this death that you have been experiencing in your tank!

Golly Don, I am not having any of these mortality problems in my tank, Is this supposed to be a commonly acknowledged problem? I sure haven't seen it!

Please clear up my misconpetions here, I'm absolutely desperate!

Haooy reef keeping again, . . Wave98