Let's Talk About ~Algae Control~

[wave98]

well, I guess the obvious concensus is, to go BB and cook rocks!

Anyone think that I'm convinced?

Happy reef keeping! Wave98

 

[mojoreef]

well, I guess the obvious concensus is, to go BB and cook rocks!Anyone think that I'm convinced?

Their is no concensus Wave on what you should do with your system. Its yours you can do what ever you wish. I have to admit I am a bit confused? you ask for info, call folks un-informed and say that things said are myths, Yet when you are offered the info (scientific and practical) to help in you project you respond with the above?? What exactly are you looking for??

Sediment systems control all waste, organics and detritus and will last indefinately. All of the above will turn into little gas bubbles and float away into the atmosphere. Setting it up is as easy as falling off a log and no skimming or mehanical filtration is required what so ever. You should run your tank at a minimum temp of 86 degrees and feed your system 5 times a day and heavy. Dont use any other salt mix other then bio se marine mix as they are all poisenious and will kill your tank.

For further reading on this miricle system please check out this site

http://www.rshimek.com/reef/sediment.htm

mike

 

[Blazer88]

Not sure if this has been covered in this thread yet, but what are the best snails for hair algae removal? I understand most won't eat the stuff if it's long, but once it's trimmed down which ones will eat if? I've had astrea snails which work ok, but aren't there larger ones that work better? I'm going in to Blue Sierra tomorrow to get some more clean-up crew and want to get the best for algae control.

 

[Blazer88]

I tested some food and found something I have never realized. Rinsing the food in RO/DI water made an unbelieveable difference in PO4. It seems this would be a big enough difference to prevent algae. I did this with both frozen mysis and cyclopeeze flakes and got the same results Any thoughts?

 

[Krish]

WOW, I just finished reading through the thread and a lot has been covered. So many views and so many different setups. My wife and I just had dinner tonight at a restaurant overlooking the ocean for our Anniversary, and she made the comment, "Can you imagine how many millions of fish there are in the water" and I said to her, "When you look at the water as a whole, what do you see?" Her reply was just water. My point here was, regardless of how much fish/marine life we have in our oceans it is by no means any comparison to the amount of water that supports them...Dilution at it's best!

We can never imitate nature. Theoretically, if you go by how many inches of fish there are total per gallon of water diplayed in the ocean, our 100 gal aquariums shouldn't even contain any fish IMO. What we have in our homes aren't even specs on a map with an earth covered by 70% water. What I'm trying to get at is we will never have perfect systems, no matter what method you use to rid yourself of algae. Are systems are just too small and are no comparison too the real thing.

I went snorkeling the other day with a few friends and we swam on the outside of the island in open waters. I didn't see any form of algae which was what I expected. As we swam around the bend and into a cove, there were rocks and reefs piled up all the way from the shore out to say 40ft and stretched for about 1/4 of a mile. 90% of the rocks/reefs were covered in hair algae and no type of coral...It looked like a lawn! Now this was only about 150-200ft from where we were before, with no algae out in the open water. 2 of the conclusions I came up with was (1) water flow. The cove was as clam as a lake and supported hundreds of fish. In addition the water felt noticeably warmer in the cove. Does this have anything to do with the algae...flow and temp?

IMO, which isn't much (LOL) I feel the best way to keep algae at a minimum, is firstly by heavy skimming, mechanical filtration, and good husbandry while at the same time having really good flow and consistent water parameters (which includes temp etc.) Like Mike (Mojoreef) once told me, get rid of the waste before it begins to break down. Then lastly, biological filtration to fall back on as a cushion if these other methods happen to fail at any point. This is what I am attempting to do with my setup to see if I can get a hold on algae before it gets a hold of me. My source of biological filtration will be bio-balls though for a FO setup, but I plan on not relying on them too much, but I need something to fall back on as I am not using much LR or substrate. I'm not really too sure about the recycling method by using snails etc to eat the hair and poop it back. I'll have to see how it goes first before I consider that. Sorry for the long post...Hope it made a little bit of sense.

 

[Krish]

Blazer88, a friend of mine showed me this site today http://www.garf.org/ If you go to the Algae control folder and then Reef janitors, it will list the different types of algaes and which snail/crabs will clean it up. Hope it helps.

 

[NaH2O]

Not sure if this has been covered in this thread yet, but what are the best snails for hair algae removal? I understand most won't eat the stuff if it's long, but once it's trimmed down which ones will eat if? I've had astrea snails which work ok, but aren't there larger ones that work better? I'm going in to Blue Sierra tomorrow to get some more clean-up crew and want to get the best for algae control.

For my system, the best eaters of hair algae have been Lettuce Sea Slugs, and the big Turbo snails. For more info on snails, with links to various articles, here is a past thread: Let's Talk About ~Snails~

I tested some food and found something I have never realized. Rinsing the food in RO/DI water made an unbelieveable difference in PO4. It seems this would be a big enough difference to prevent algae. I did this with both frozen mysis and cyclopeeze flakes and got the same results Any thoughts?

Wow - great photo. It definately shows why it is important to rinse food in RO/DI prior to introduction. When making blender mush or using frozen foods, like mysis, rinsing removes the sodium phosphates that have been sprayed on the food. This is just one more input to limit to the tank.

I went snorkeling the other day with a few friends and we swam on the outside of the island in open waters. I didn't see any form of algae which was what I expected. As we swam around the bend and into a cove, there were rocks and reefs piled up all the way from the shore out to say 40ft and stretched for about 1/4 of a mile. 90% of the rocks/reefs were covered in hair algae and no type of coral...It looked like a lawn! Now this was only about 150-200ft from where we were before, with no algae out in the open water. 2 of the conclusions I came up with was (1) water flow. The cove was as clam as a lake and supported hundreds of fish. In addition the water felt noticeably warmer in the cove. Does this have anything to do with the algae...flow and temp?

Krish - I wonder how much run-off that cove sees?

 

[Blazer88]

I just picked up some of the larger Turbo and Cerith snails, we'll see how they do. I think the only reason I have any hair algae left is that I used the rocks from my last tank which looked like a front lawn, lol. I think the main problem was I had a grouper and I was feeding him lots of mysis shrimp and wasn't rinsing the water out. Now I am rinsing all of my food in RO/DI water which should greatly improve the situation. I've learned soo much in the past six months....

 

[wave98]

Blazer88; Astrea snails and dwarf blue legged hermit crabs do wonders. See post #25 on this thread. That post started a small fire on this thread, but it's almost out, and the tank remains very happy!

The Nitrate finally dropped below 1ppm Saturday on the 27 gal. hex with plenum, and I also found the phosphate problem in the tap water, so on with the RO/DI system.

Thanks for the graphic "wake up" on Phosphate in the food, I really have to get going on that RO/DI!

Happy reef keeping! > Wave98

 

[wave98]

a friend of mine showed me this site today http://www.garf.org/ If you go to the Algae control folder and then Reef janitors, it will list the different types of algaes and which snail/crabs will clean it up. Hope it helps.

The "Reef Janitor" information at Garf.org is well over 5 years old, as is nearly all of the information there. No complaint here, just the facts.

I read an excellent article on snails a few days ago from a link here at RF. Darned if I can find the link right now, but it was well backed with references and studies, and pointed out at length, that many snails being sold in the reefing hobby, are being collected from "temperate", and not "tropical" waters. :idea:

The article further explains that while these snails may live from a short period to as long as a year or more in our tropical home reefs, most of them cannot stay alive for their normal ( much longer ) life cycle, in the temperatures we commonly run in popular reef systems.

This could certianly have to do with eventual snail deaths, as often reported by various aquarists.

Garf, and some other detrivore suppliers, recommend occasional replacement, or "replenishing" of the "clean-up" crew( sometimes at 6 mo. intervals ), and this may have something to do with it.

If I can find the article I will post a link to it here. Maybe another member has read it and can post the link. Just a "what's current" with snails.

I really enjoy the crabs and snails. > Happy reef keeping! > Wave98

 

[Krish]

Yeah Wave98, I think you love your crabs and snails more than your fish because all you talk about is your snails and crabs(LOL)...I was wondering do you actually have any fish?

 

[wave98]

Krish75, I have two percula clowns, a three stripe damsel, a yellow tail damsel, a Bangii cardinal, and your avatar, which happens to be my favorite.
Also Peppermint shrimp, Brittle star, Limpet, Gorgonian, Open brain coral, Xenia, Zoas, hitchhiker featherdusters and several Sps.

The Sps want more light. I don't have any algae problems, and I talk about snails and crabs as much as need be to counteract the unreasonable thrashing they have been getting on this thread. :lol: Just a little less phosphate and some more wattage, and I'll have it.

IMO, which isn't much (LOL) I feel the best way to keep algae at a minimum, is firstly by heavy skimming, mechanical filtration, and good husbandry while at the same time having really good flow and consistent water parameters (which includes temp etc.) Like Mike (Mojoreef) once told me, get rid of the waste before it begins to break down. Then lastly, biological filtration to fall back on as a cushion if these other methods happen to fail at any point. This is what I am attempting to do with my setup to see if I can get a hold on algae before it gets a hold of me. My source of biological filtration will be bio-balls though for a FO setup, but I plan on not relying on them too much, but I need something to fall back on as I am not using much LR or substrate.

Well Krish, I mostly agree with you for what it's worth, although considering biological filtration "lastly" seems a bit dangerous. If you use bio-balls, they will not be a back-up, they will be the front line in your filtration whether you like it or not. That's just how they work. They are not so bad in a FO system, since most fish aren't bothered much by nitrate, but they will definately produce nitrate, and here we go with nutrient control again.

Best of luck Krish, really. > Wave98

 

[NaH2O]

wave - go back to post #87 for a link to the thread you are talking about.

 

[wave98]

Thanks Nikki, that's the one. Very interesting article! Into favorites with it!

> Wave98

 

[Krish]

Well Krish, I mostly agree with you for what it's worth, although considering biological filtration "lastly" seems a bit dangerous. If you use bio-balls, they will not be a back-up, they will be the front line in your filtration whether you like it or not. That's just how they work. They are not so bad in a FO system, since most fish aren't bothered much by nitrate, but they will definately produce nitrate, and here we go with nutrient control again.

Yeah, I guess you are right in a sense, but if most of the waste is removed before it has time to break down, then you shouldn't have high levels of nitrates. Sort of like what people say about following your fish around with a scoop to remove the poop as it drops. If there is no poop, then there can't be much waste. This analogy is unrealistic though as no-one will do this, but on that same note, if you do heavy skimming, weekly siphoning of the substrate, and changing out of filter pads daily, while at the same time having a small fish load, and proper care with overfeeding, then you should never have extremely high levels of nitrates...Bio-balls or not (which I am attempting). The only reason why I am using them is because I only have about 15-20lbs of LR in my tank and a ssb. Not much room for any real type of biological filtration. The tank will provide some on the surfaces of the glass rock, etc. but not enough to handle a dead fish gone un-noticed, which was pointed out to me. I may be wrong, but logically, if these guildlines are met and carried through religiously, then it should work. Don't forget though, bio-balls don't just produce nitrates...You can have high levels of nitrates in a tank without them. My friend uses LR and a skimmer for biological filtration and denitrification and his Nitrates are off the chart. His tank is producing so much waste that the rock can't even keep up with itself in removing it and processing it...Berlin method out the window with nitrates @ 60ppm!

Like I've said before, all systems are different just like no two of us are the same. Some have success and others failures. You got to go with what works best for you that's why I never knock on what someone else does. If I were to look at my friends setup, and didn't know any better, I'd tell him the Berlin method sucks and bio-balls produce less nitrates. In addition, I think if your setup, with using snails and crabs, does just for your tank what you want it to do and your fish and corals are happy then I say, "Job well done". That right there would make me happy to know that there can be diversity in marine systems and one can still have success...If we all had to have the same setup (to be successful), then I think the hobby would be boring, because there wouldn't be much to talk about anymore on forums like this.

 

[wave98]

You are quite right again Krish, all of it. It's just those bio-balls, they are exceedingly effecient in the first two stages, but then do nothing for nitrate. Something else has to take care of the nitrate, but the bio-balls have already used up most of the food.

I would refuse to live in a boring utopia myself. I suspect most people would feel the same once they experienced it. We certianly don't suffer from that here! :lol:

> Wave98

 

[NaH2O]

So, there has been a lot of mention about phosphates being a prime meal for algae. What can we do about it? Well, as mentioned, limiting the inputs is the first step....especially when dealing with the source being water. Every water change (with water containing phosphates) is only going to input more phosphates. There are phosphate removers available to hobbyists, and I think they definately have their place. I wouldn't look to them as a cure all, but as help to get you where you want to be.....while doing other measures to limit the inputs. I personally like the ferrous oxide removers, as opposed to the ones that contain aluminum. Here is a link to the thread about Phosphate Removers: Phosphate Remover Article. There is debate on the use of these removers causing problems for SPS keepers, and it has been suggested to "wean" your tank onto it, which includes changing out old media for new. Another use for the phosphate removers (thanks dgasmd!), running the effluent from calcium reactors through the remover. This would help to limit the phosphates coming from the calcium reactor media (another input).

Using macro algaes as competition for the nuisance algaes, is another method used by hobbyists. IMO, researching the different macro algaes is important, because some come with their own issues, like caulerpas and toxicity. Determine if the macro you use is right for your system. Anyone use macros for competition against nuisance algae?

What role do you think water flow plays in algae control? How important is it, can you have too much flow, and create an algae problem?

 

[Krish]

Well, I'm no expert on algae control. The only thing I've ever been good at is growing it I think that water flow is very important in algae control though. Too little will cause problems in dead spots, but as for too much flow, I think It can cause a problem also when the flow is not directed properly and is not evenly distributed to keep ditritus in the water column long enough to be picked up by other marine life or removed by filtration.

I think one of the most important factors to think about when controlling algae is light or your photo-period. If we all agree that algae is a type of plant, then we should all agree that it needs light to survive. We can help minimize this problem by limiting the amount of light we provide the tank daily to about 8-10 hrs a day. This can be a problem for some people as they may need light for longer periods of the day for different corals etc. but in the case of say a FO setup, 6 hours a day is said to be all that is needed for fish to manufacture vitamin D (I could be wrong though). Also, we can make sure that if we are setting up our photo-period for our own conveniences, like having lights come on later in the day and go off later on in the night so that we can get to enjoy our tanks when we get home from work, then we need to make sure that during the day, when we are at work (and the lights are off) that our tanks aren't receiving light from a nearby window. In this case we may think our tanks are only receiving 8 hours of light (because of our timer) but in reality it is receiving 13+ hours of light.

I feel that one of the best ways to control algae is to have some form of algae. That may sound wierd, but it is true. Or you can have some form of plant life or corals...Let me explain why and tell me if it makes any sense.
The only tanks I can think of that never really have any algae are planted freshwater tanks (like our LFS has) and a full blown reef tanks with corals. Plants and corals (that get their food via photosynthesis) both need light and nutrients to survive. So if you have them, they would compete with the algae for these same nutrients and light. In a tank without either of these, the nutrients are left up to the algae as their is no competiton...A huge buffet for algae. This is why I know at some point I will get algae in my FO setup...No nutrient export. So one of the things I think I will do is allow it to grow on the little rock I do have, and keep removing it from everywhere else. This way the algae on my rock will consume the nutrients and prevent any new algae growth. Does that make any sense as I will not have a fuge?

As for phosphates, I say treat everything with phosphate removers. Use your ro/di water to defrost any foods you may have to defrost and even if you could go the extra step, do like what was mentioned earlier and allow your ro/di water to have some treatment (like from your phosban reactor) before even using it to defrost or top off. I'll stop now...Sorry for the long post

 

[Krish]

Me again Everytime I say this my wife says, "Oh no! Here we go again", but I just had a vision (LOL). Tell me what you think...

O.k The infamous bio-balls we all love to hate (because of their nitrate production) can they be good for something? Let me elaborate. I have a FO setup, so I figured I'd go with bio-balls for quick ammonia and nitrite conversion. It is obvious that algae will grow after a few weeks of adding fish as waste will be present regardless of how good I think my skimmer will skim, or how good I think I will be at cleaning weekly, or how careful I think I will be at feeding...Something (excess nutrients) will be left behind with no place to go. As a result...Algae. What if I add a few pieces of rock covered with algae into my sump submerged under my bio-balls (with lighting) once I see algae starting to develop in the main tank? If you all agree with what I said before about algae being used to prevent new growth, then I can put it in my sump, so I don't have to see it and let it out compete any new growth in the tank. It will be a means of nutrient export. Has this ever been tried because I've never heard of the combo (bio-balls and algae in a sump)? It seems kinda logical that it will work because algae seems to grow just as fast as nitrates are produced. Can this be an answer to controlling algae in a FO tank? Just a thought though

 

[NaH2O]

Too little will cause problems in dead spots, but as for too much flow, I think It can cause a problem also when the flow is not directed properly and is not evenly distributed to keep ditritus in the water column long enough to be picked up by other marine life or removed by filtration.

Good points. I agree - too little for, or not directed properly will allow detritus and wastes to build up. This would provide a nice spot for algae to grow. Lack or too little flow can be countered with the occasional blast with a powerhead or turkey baster. Even areas where you think have good flow can use a good basting. With too much flow, IMO, if you have a ton of flow pointed at an area, I think this can also allow algaes to take hold in these areas. Nothing will be able to clean the algae off, so it can grow without predation. What do you think about flow blasting detritus into nooks and crannies in the rock? Would this be a problem?

do like what was mentioned earlier and allow your ro/di water to have some treatment (like from your phosban reactor) before even using it to defrost or top off.

Remember though, if you are truely using RO/DI water, and your filters are good, then there would be no reason to treat with a phosphate remover. The RO/DI should be phosphate free.

What if I add a few pieces of rock covered with algae into my sump submerged under my bio-balls (with lighting) once I see algae starting to develop in the main tank? If you all agree with what I said before about algae being used to prevent new growth, then I can put it in my sump, so I don't have to see it and let it out compete any new growth in the tank. It will be a means of nutrient export. Has this ever been tried because I've never heard of the combo (bio-balls and algae in a sump)? It seems kinda logical that it will work because algae seems to grow just as fast as nitrates are produced. Can this be an answer to controlling algae in a FO tank? Just a thought though

This is an interesting thought. A few things. Miracle mud systems kind of use the same concept...in a different way. The bioballs are prior to the mud section where algaes grow. The mud particles are so fine, that it provides a great deal of denitrification. The bioballs provide nitrates to the mud section (any mud users, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong). Algaes are used in the mud section to facilitate nutrient export. A concern in your concept I see, is the ability to easily get to your algae. I would think occasionally, you'll want to clean out detritus buildup, and possibly harvest. Another concern is, if you use a nuisance algae, then it would be easy for the nuisance algae to make its way to the tank, and take hold. It might be easier to use a macro algae in the sump, and harvest it, instead of introducing a nuisance to the system. You could make a box out of eggcrate and keep some chaeto in it, so it doesn't get sucked up by your pumps (your sump isn't sectioned off right?).

Here's another question I'd like some opinions on, as I think it pertains to my tank. We've all been told to go slow with a reef tank...slow is better. Can you go too slow? Would not providing enough competition for the algae allow it to grow crazy? I went slow with my tank.....really slow - one fish at a time, no corals, yet I had uncontrollable algae. Granted, I had my skimmer break mid cycle/curing rock, so I had more nutrients than I would have liked for 2 months before a new skimmer was sent out. But, it has been proposed to me that I went too slow, so the algae was able to take hold due to lack of any significant competition (no corals, one fish, snails - in a 120)?