Lets talk about ~Aquarium Husbandry~

[Maxx]

Scott,
Hafta chime in.......great thread ....very informative, thanks to all for sharing...
The filter sock/ sump return is a great idea and will definately lower the frequency of water changes, but they are not a substitute for water changes in my opinion. I kow there are many people w/ excellent systems who dont do water changes, (I know a few here.... ), but they have designed their systems to be able to account for this and they also have LOTS of experiance.
The experience is helpful in allowing these people to recognize potential problems before they get serious.
I feel I have a fair amount of experience and can recognize when animals are not happy/healthy, but I dont have the resources to set up my tank w/o water changes. So my tank is being designed to make water changes easy. I plan on monthly water changes, with siphoning of at least every couple of days, (returning the water back to the sump). This is just how I plan on doing things, there are certainly many ways to skin a cat.
I have heard of people siphoning/perfomring maintenance on DSB's by getting a length of rigid tubing, and attaching a siphon tube to that. The rigind tubing acts like a guide rod and keeps the felxible tubing out of the sand bed by an inch or so. The guide rod is used to stir up the DSB and get alot of the funk/detritus up into the water column where the siphon can get to it and get it out of the tank.
Nick

 

[Scooterman]

Neat little trick Maxx, I agree in most systems wc is very helpful, I believe if your going to do one, do a big one, making it in your design to make it quicker & easier is worth some thought. I think this is my problem, I keep learning & thinking of new ideas & re-thinking, to the point that my system has back tracked several times. One of these days I will have a full blown reef

 

[Maxx]

I agree in most systems wc is very helpful, I believe if your going to do one, do a big one

Why big water changes only? What is big, 30%, 40%, 50%?
I think that 20-25% monthly is sufficient. I think if you do more than that, you're really changing the parameters of the water, or it requires more effort to ensure that you dont change the parameters, such as temperature, salinity, Calcuim/Alk levels, PH etc.
If you start off doing regular water changes, then levels of nitrates, phosphates etc, never have a chance to reach levels that become problematic in the aquarium. Also, once you get in the swing of things, your water changes can be more frequent, and smaller.
For example, I'm setting up a 58 gallon. I'll probably be using a 20 gallon tank for a sump, which will only hold about 15 gallons. So my total system volume will be about 73 gallons. We'll call it 75 for sake of arguement, (reactor, skimmer etc).
25% of 75 gallons is 18.75 gallons. Rather than do one 18.75 gallon water change once a month, (after the tank has stabilized, and liverock has cured), I would do either a weekly 5% water change, (4.6 gallons....5 gallons for the matehmatically challenged like me) or water changes of 10 gallons every other week, (twice a month).
I feel this is more beneficial as it doesnt let levels reach a high point, and then drop them down suddenly....only to repeat it next month. Doing smaller more frequent water changes will keep the tank more stable than a few monster water changes.
Nick

 

[Scooterman]

This is interesting Maxx, lets start with the

Why big water changes only? What is big, 30%, 40%, 50%?
I think that 20-25% monthly is sufficient.

Depends on you total water volume, but in smaller systems I think it is more crucial than in large volume systems, smaller tanks, pollute much quicker, thus needing more waste removal, this can be done through mechanical filtration or WC, depending on your equipment & husbandry, will determine what or how much water is needed to be replaced, also stock, fish & corals will also be a player in this. Lets say Big as in about 25% total water volume, it could be more but, for now we can go with this, so I can explain my point of view. If you remove 25% water, & replace it, you've done a 25% WC but if you do four 5% WC in a month you replace less as with each WC you also replacing some of the existing water from the past change.

I think if you do more than that, you're really changing the parameters of the water, or it requires more effort to ensure that you don't change the parameters, such as temperature, salinity, Calcium/Alk levels, PH etc.

Why you say this? Your salt mix should be actually help to keep your parameters in check, another reason to do larger volume WC's, if the mix has all of your prams. of NSW or as close as they can get it, then how can it throw off your levels, if anything it should replenish buffering, traces etc, you test nitrates, some phosphates, CA, MG etc, do you test for every element before & after each WC? If you don't have nitrates before, do you get a reading after?

If you start off doing regular water changes, then levels of nitrates, phosphates etc, never have a chance to reach levels that become problematic in the aquarium.

I agree.

For example, I'm setting up a 58 gallon. I'll probably be using a 20 gallon tank for a sump, which will only hold about 15 gallons. So my total system volume will be about 73 gallons.

Do you have LR included? I'd say you would have closer to 50g total with LR.

this is more beneficial as it doesn't let levels reach a high point, and then drop them down suddenly....only to repeat it next month. Doing smaller more frequent water changes will keep the tank more stable than a few monster water changes.

In a smaller system your Prams. do tend to swing rather quickly, so maybe Bi-monthly WC would be better, more so in even smaller systems, the levels are changing quicker most probably due to the smaller volume of water & your bio-load, even if you had a smaller bio-load accordingly.

 

[MINIATUS]

hey Witful - what is a good diatom filter? i would like to get one just to polish my water every once in a while.

Here is another Diatom Filter.

MINIATUS

 

[MINIATUS]

One question about BB tanks, is it possible to keep manderins in such a tank since there will not be a bed for pods to grow and feed the Manderins. Also clams should have a sand bed so how do you deal with that in a BB tank.
My aim right now is to remove the sand bed which is SD sand and replace with regular arogonite, tired of the Sd flying all over and landing on my stuff on the aquarium floor. But If the BB is easier to maintain that is a better option.

MINIATUS

 

[DonW]

While on the topic of water changes. My routine is a little different. I dont actually do a real water change. If you you go back a page or two you'll see my vac bucket. I vac my rock weekly instead of turkey baster blasting. I fill the bucket with fresh salt mix open the valve and let it go into the sump, then vac. When I'm done the valve gets closed and the same amount is removed.

Don

 

[Katchupoy]

Miniatus, I think you dont need sandbed to grow your pods... they usually use crevices and crannies of LR. Unless you use rubbles as your substrate, and big enough for them to swim under it... then you are good. [maybe I am wrong about the pods so please correct me here]

A lot of people uses refugium to breed these pods. In this way... no fish can eat them while they are multiplying.

 

[DonW]

I have a back corner, a graveyard of sorts. I throw all the dead snail and crab shells, live rock rubble and dead sps. When the lights come on it looks like a ant hill. My fat manderine is always hanging out on the pile.

Don

 

[NaH2O]

Not getting into too much detail, but pods like darkness and rubbley type piles to propagate in.

 

[fishermann]

Maxx I agree with you and that is the way i do it in my two tanks. I have a 58 and a 75 oceanic and i do a 5gal in both once a week mainly just to replenish trace elements. I have never had a nitrate or phos problem. I run a 100m felt sock 24/7 and vac a couple times a week and i usally don't on the water change because i find it easier to just put the hose in the sock before i change the sock out, that way you don't have to worry about getting everything vac'd out by the time your bucket fills to the correct water change volume. I totally agree that large changes are not good for the system, there are alot more things you change other then just calc,alk, salinity, and the other basic water parims when doing a water change. I run a BB now for going on three yrs.

 

[fishermann]

You can keep a mandarin with a BB. Just keep the wrasses out they well out hunt the mandarin for pods.

 

[Scooterman]

My six-line is one heck of a hunter.

 

[wooddood]

MIN YES YOU CAN KEEP A MANDARIN IN A BB TANK I DO AND HE'S FAT AND SASSY.also when i clean the bottom of my tank i use a hot magnum cannister filter with a piece of hose attached, you dont loose any water and you can take all the time you need. also i have my flow setup so all my junk collects in 2 spots in the back corners so vaccuming is very easy just do it often.

 

[Maxx]

Originally posted by Scooterman If you remove 25% water, & replace it, you've done a 25% WC but if you do four 5% WC in a month you replace less as with each WC you also replacing some of the existing water from the past change.

Scott,
Anytime you do a water change you are replacing existing water from the previous water change. Thats the point. The benefit to performing more frequent and smaller water changes is that the aquarium is more stable (in theory...I'll hit on that in just a minute), since levels of waste and toxins don't reach higher levels and then drop suddenly after a big water change.
I think it was Anthony Calfo who advocated thinking of aquariums like a toilet or sewer system....how do we get the crap out?
The whole BB approach is designed get the crap out more easily...
So wouldnt it make sense to "flush the toilet" more frequently in order to get rid of the crap that accumulates in areas of low flow?
BTW four 5% water changes a month only equals 20 gallons, so you're already doing less than a 25 gallon water change.

Originally posted by Scooterman Your salt mix should be actually help to keep your parameters in check, another reason to do larger volume WC's, if the mix has all of your prams. of NSW or as close as they can get it, then how can it throw off your levels, if anything it should replenish buffering, traces etc, you test nitrates, some phosphates, CA, MG etc, do you test for every element before & after each WC?

Yes, it should. But I know you remember the ruckus that was started over on another board about salt mixes and how they can vary from package to package, (same manufacturer), top to bottom, (of the same package), and how they should maintain parameters, but some people were getting bad batches of salt.....
I'm not trying to drag that monkey up out of the dirt, just pointing out that there can be a very real hazard to blindly changing water w/o testing. I should test the new water before every water change, but have been lazy in the past.

Good call on the livrock displacing water volume....had conviently ignored that.

Originally posted by Miniatus One question about BB tanks, is it possible to keep manderins in such a tank since there will not be a bed for pods to grow and feed the Manderins. Also clams should have a sand bed so how do you deal with that in a BB tank.

Min, yes you can keep Mandarins in a BB tank, just keep the level of competing predators, (like werasses etc) down so as not to make it too hard for them to survive. Another thing to keep in ind is that BB tanks generally have high flow. Manadarins are not strong swimmers and might be something to keep in a remote refugium, (finally, the real definition of refugium!) plumbed into the main system. As far as clams go...
Not all clams are sandbed clams. Maxima's and Crocea's are actually rock dwelling clams, so they don't need a sandbed to live in the tank. Just place them in an area w/ low flow, (clams are really horrible swimmers.) and they should do fine in a BB system. ince they utilize nitrates in order to survive, they can aid in nitrate reduction......so frrequent water changes that keep levels of nitrates down might not be the best thing for them.
Fishermann...glad to hear your set up is going well. You should post pics of it in the full tank shots thread here.
Nick

 

[Scooterman]

BTW four 5% water changes a month only equals 20 gallons, so you're already doing less than a 25 gallon water change.
Nick

DOOOP! Yep.

When you flush the toilet, you displace the entire bowl several times, am I right? I guess it all depends, these days people are learning of better ways to filter water, if your using low micron socks, & vacuuming regular along with other methods of waste removal, then in essence your replacing water & elements right? Then maybe in this case smaller changes are more than fine, not to long ago, these practices weren't being done by most newer members of reefing. I think this may be another good topic to hit up on.

 

[Maxx]

Scott,
sad fact of the matter is, I wasnt heeding my own advice.....
I got busy and didnt make time for tank maintenance. It didnt help things that my tank was configured in such a way as to make maintenance difficult at best.
The new set up is definately being designed w/ ease of maintenance in mind.
The 7 P's....(Of maintenance or anything else in life)
Proper
Prior
Planning
Prevents
P_ _ _
Poor
Performance
Of course I say that now.....we'll see how well I planned things out in a few months.
Nick

 

[fishermann]

Maxx I would love to post some pics and someday I well, but I don't have a digital camera yet, and the other thing is I would have to learn how to post them and when it comes to computers I'm as dumb as a piece of live rock, LOL.

 

[Maxx]

If a former infantry Marine can figure it out, you can too.
enter
enter
enter dammit
enter )*&%$$
(&^^%(#@$#!


Maybe not....
Nick