Lets Talk About ~Filtration Concepts~

[bubba654]

This is the best thread so far. Not to jump ahead,but. I have just set up a "ecosystem" the mud the 24Hour light and the calerpa. No coral yet . 55 gal 4-65 wat pc shallow sand bed 1-2" 80# live rock 4 blue cromis and coroline algae on the glass I have started slow due to $$$ issues the issue if that I done think I want to spend 1000.OO just to have water and lights "Slow and steady Wins the Race"

 

[jks1]

this may be way off base. I understand not wanting sand stiring critters in a DSB because of the chance of introducing oxygen to the lower bed. Would a screen placed under the top 1-1.5" or so allow you to keep the critters and limit the amount of stirring done below it. I would think the size of particles in the 1.5" level of the DSB would be small enough to penetrate the screen since they have already been reduced by the first level of reducers.

just a thought

 

[mojoreef]

Bubba we can do Mud next,

I understand not wanting sand stiring critters in a DSB because of the chance of introducing oxygen to the lower bed.

John thats not really the reason. it doesnt matter if oxygen is introduced to the anaerobic zone, those bacteria are faculative (they go both ways oxygen and nitrate fixers). you would have to worry about the nasties being stirred up though. The biggest problem with higher life forms such as gobies, stars and so on is that they eat all the critters you need in the bed to keep it viable.
The one thing that would worry me about the screen would be "How easy would it to get clogged with detritus/organics and so on." if it did you would shorten the life span concederable

Mike

 

[macreefer]

Shallow Sand Bed

Hi Mike,

Great thread.

What about a shallow sand bed (SSB). It would still look nice and you could vaccum it regularly.

You also mention phosphate concentrations in dsb's. Wouldn't regular phosphate chemical filtration mehtods keep the phosphate from fixing? ie, as it becomes available in the water column as it gets released from the dsb, the filter sucks it up before becoming available to algae?

I like the looks of sand and if it was just 1" deep and could be vaccumed regularly, might that not do the trick?

Kel in lil ol Boise, Idaho.

 

[NaH2O]

macreefer - I think we are going to discuss shallow sand beds at some point during this thread. With regards to phosphate - it is already present in the sand bed, so the chemical filtration would be to remove it in the water column - after the bed sinks excess phosphates to the point of saturation where it then releases it. I'm not sure if the phosphate removers would do anything about algae growing on the sandbed because the phosphate concentration would start there, and not be in the water column yet.

 

[mojoreef]

Hi Mac. yea lets do Shallow beds by itself. I think it has different systematics then either dsb's or BB tank.


quote:
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You also mention phosphate concentrations in dsb's. Wouldn't regular phosphate chemical filtration mehtods keep the phosphate from fixing? ie, as it becomes available in the water column as it gets released from the dsb, the filter sucks it up before becoming available to algae?
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thats a really good question, and I beleive no matter what system you use, we have to agressively attack Phoshates. They can do everything from stoping your stoney corals from growing to removing calcium to turning your corals brown, never mind the algae blooms.
Nikki touched on it a bit, but I would like to take it deeper. Were going to have P entering the tank and being produced by the tank, that and it comes in so many forms (inorganic/organic/dissolved/particulate and so on). IMHO using a good P remover such as Rowa or even Phosban is a great fail safe, if P goes Dissovled inorganic the remover will take it out. This is going to work on P that is coming off foods, salt mixes, additives and fish GILL waste. so a good plan of attack. as per what is coming off the bed itself or off the sand particles, as Nikki said it wont have a chance at those. they will be bound up immediately by bacteria and/or algae. BUT the fight is not over, Both algae and bacteria will always be associated with Detritus/waste/extra food. If thier is any of this matter around, one or the other or both will be all over it trying to use or reduce it. In removing the detritus and so on, you will be exporting organic Phosphates, so that can be a big win. The next tough battle for P is Particulate organic P. this is the P that is bound up in seed surfaces such as sand, rock and simular. It would be nice to keep it bound up thier forever, but it just isnt going to happen, bacteria or low PH conditions will release it back out into solution. This is why trying to percipatate P out of the water using kalk is not a good idea. If we can keep it associated with detritus and organics we can remove it via good husbandry (syphoning/cleaning) if we use a P remove (high quality) we can nail the inorganic as it enters. So thats what we want to do keep it in those forms and deal with it thier.
so to give you a simple answer NO, lol
on the shallow bed thier is a whole series of things you could do to make it viable. we will talk about it.


Mike

 

[Scooterman]

If we can keep it associated with detritus and organics we can remove it via good husbandry (syphoning/cleaning) if we use a P remove (high quality) we can nail the inorganic as it enters.

Mike, Jerel told me the new Vortex Diatom filter I just purchased would release phosphates back into my system when filtering water, trying to remove waste by siphoning. If this is true, then how can we siphon without doing this, or is there only one true way, that would be to siphon while also removing water? Please clarify, the proper way to remove detritus. Sorry I hope I'm not jumping the gun here, but I think this would pertain to either system. help a confused brother please!

 

[mojoreef]

LOL Scoot I dont know how a mechcanical filter can put P into the water??? perhaps he was refering to the diatomicious (sp?) powder??. I dont use that with mine. its pretty much just an automatic syphon device for me. I usually put the output of the pump down my drain line and just have a 5 micron sock waiting for it. I have used it alone to with no powder and it still gets a lot of organics out, the doc's of coarse go down the line to the skimmer.


Mike

 

[mojoreef]

Alright then let's move on to miracle mud systems.
The concept of the mud system is pretty close to that of a deep sand bed system. The difference in the system is that the mud is as even more finer particles then used in the deep sand bed system. This basically makes the vast majority of the mud system anaerobic. With very little or no aerobic zone. With no aerobic zone (or very little) nitrification will not occur, for this reason the miracle mud system uses bio balls in the chamber just prior to where the mud chamber is. These bio balls create a good environment for the growth of nitrifing bacteria, so here ammonia is converted to nitrite and then converted to nitrate. The nitrate laden water then pours into the mud chamber, being that the mud chamber is almost completely anaerobic, the nitrate laden water is excepted and processed by the mud. In this system there is not such an importance placed on sand stirring critters, as most of the bacteria is already at the surface of the mud. The planting of macro algae is promoted in the mud system to help with exportation as the mud system itself does none. I believe it is also recommended to replace the mud wants every nine months to a year, correct me if I am wrong?
Again the overall concept of this system is not to remove detritus/waste/organics prior but instead is to facilitate the rotting and reducing of the prior mentioned products.
Pros:
this system is usually run outside of the main tank and thus will not affect water flow in the main tank.
With the fact that the material should be replaced once a year, this would eliminate long-term buildup that occurs in a deep sand bed system.
If set up and maintained properly this system will perform denitrification.
Cons:
the system is set up based on complex biochemical cycles, and thus is at their mercy.
It does not allow for the same type of infuana diversity as a deep sand bed system or as a shallow sand bed system.
The one biggest con in my opinion is the actual elemental makeup of what is mud is.


MM make up

mike

 

[Scooterman]

This is a good one, it reminds me of T5 lighting, I hear great things about it but that is the most I get, aside a great push for the product. I know of several running side by side with system not using them, also with skimmers and without. In the last year and a half, working closely with my LFS in particular, we have put this system to the test in his store. side by side I see one major difference from the tank with a skimmer & the one without, coralline algae. The skimmerless has total coverage, while the one with the skimmer has significantly less. I don't know at this point for sure if any of this is the cause, we have almost identical equipment except the skimmer.

 

[CarlaW]

In my 80 gallon, I have complete coralline coverage, have to scrape every 2-3 weeks. Don't really know, but I think that the type of lighting used has more to do with coralline. Of course the Ca. and alk. levels must be good also to produce the coralline, correct?

 

[NaH2O]

My understanding was the miracle mud system was a skimmerless system.

If you look at the analysis .... that is alot of aluminum. Also what benefit would the high iron have other than promote macroalgaes to grow? I guess this is good when using it to export, however, macros have their own drawbacks.

 

[CarlaW]

Yes, the MM system is skimmerless. This idea has been beaten to death on other boards. as far as I am concerned, it seems to work! Mine has been set up for 2.5 years, and aside from having to prune my caulerpa every 2 weeks, it seems to be a no hassle proposition. You can analize it all you want, but can you argue with 1/4" -1/2" growth per month on sps corals within that system? Sometimes I think that you can over think some of this hobby!
If it ain't broke, don't fix it

 

[mojoreef]

Charlie were not here to analyze or scrutinize any system. Once you know how the system works it's pretty easy to see what the drawbacks or the benefits of each system will be. I think it's important to take a look at all things involved in each filtration concept, that is the whole idea behind this thread. We tell people how they work, we talk about some of the cons and we talk about some of the pros. This way a person who's just coming into it can read the information and make an educated decision without a bunch of opinions.

It's all good bud

Mike

 

[CarlaW]

no problem

 

[bubba654]

Hey MOJO I just set up my MM system and from what i have read you have to replace 1/2 the mud every year. shut down the system scrape out 1/2 of the mud refill let it settle and off you go. Hey Charlie Any suggestions would be appreciated

 

[NaH2O]

How much mud is required per gallon of tank? Is there a standard?

 

[mojoreef]

Thanks Bubba I wasnt sure, I have heard a few different time frames.


Mike

 

[Scooterman]

Yes there is a standard, for my 100g I think it would of cost me about $60 to $90 for the actual mud.

 

[NaH2O]

Nevermind. I found what I was looking for: taken from Here

Tank Size 40-65 gal = 10 lbs
Tank Size 75-95 gal = 20 lbs
Tank Size 100-135 gal = 30 lbs
Tank Size 150-240 gal = 40 lbs
Tank Size 300-500 gal = 60 lbs
Tank Size 500-1000 gal = 120 lbs

I also found this Miracle Mud Set-up Instructions

Taken from the above link
To continue successful maintenance of your marine aquarium system, it is recommended that you add or_ exchange an appropriate amount of Miracle Mud@ (50%) every two years.