Let's Talk About ~Foods~

[Curtswearing]

Steve,
I actually don't know that product as it was not the one I was talking about. I don't particularly care about trace elements because I'm of the belief that water changes reduce high levels of trace elements that we get from our foods as opposed to the other way around. JMO and I don't want to steer this thread off course.

I don't like their answer. Their product may be awesome or it may be terrible. I don't know because I've never analyzed it. I know what copper sulphate is because it is widely used by bonsai hobbiests. I obtained a large quantity of it to save the Bonsai Society of St. Louis some money. The products out there that contain it for Bonsai keepers are extremely expensive. This stuff is highly water-soluble and the fungicides that are sold to hobbiests are almost all water with a little Copper Sulphate in it. (Why have one expensive hobby when you can have two LOL). Without getting too philosophical, you can find Uranium in the ocean but I don't believe that any of the supplement manufacturers are going to be adding this to their foods as a trace element.

 

[Angelscrx]

I mix frozen foods. I take frozen mysis shrimp, brine shrimp, and blood worms and mix them together and then freeze in little cubes. I give half a cube twice a day. I also feed the fish live blood worms for snacks on occasions. I feed phyto three times a week. I used to use flake food but will never use it again.

 

[Curtswearing]

There's a good article in the library from our very own TerryB.

Better yet, how can we prevent dietary problems? Poor growth is an indicator of improper diet, or poor water quality. Substandard water conditions cause stress and therefore stunt growth. Depressed behavior is another warning sign of poor diet, undesirable water conditions, or chronic stress. Eye problems are a common occurrence in fish suffering from nutritional deficiencies. This can take the form of blindness, cataracts, or other ophthalmic lesions. It can also lead to vertebral anomalies, fin erosion, gill hyperplasia (enlargement) and skin hemorrhages. Then, of course, there is the ultimate symptom of dietary deficiency: death.

What causes dietary deficiencies? Improperly stored foods, a monotonous diet, not using foods that adequately substitute for the natural diet and not feeding often enough or providing enough food per feeding. Do you buy fish foods in large quantities but cannot use it all within a couple of months? This may initially sound economical, but it is not. Many foods quickly lose their nutritional value. Unless kept frozen, buy only what you can use within two months. Frozen food can be kept longer. Refrigerate all non-frozen foods, even flake or freeze-dried food.

Keeping Fish in Optimal Condition by Terry B.

Until I read that article the first time, I never even considered the impact of time on the nutritional value of processed foods. This is definately something to think about.

I would recommend reading the entire article and he also gives some info on HUFAs (Highly Unsaturated Fatty Acids). I don't think that we can do a proper discussion of foods without discussing HUFA's. I personally use Selcon to help in this manner. I'm curious what others use.

 

[reedman]

I'm with you Curt. I add selcon to my mush to ensure a higher nutritional value.

 

[DonW]

Has any one considered adding oysters to their blender mush to boost fatty and amino acids.

Don

 

[NaH2O]

Hmmm - Don, I don't know that the nutritional content would be that different than clams or mussels. I'm not sure though. I did read recently that these (oysters, clams, mussels, and the like) contain a higher concentration of metals. I'll have to see if I can find that and figure out if it would even matter.

HUFAs were mentioned and in one of the articles I linked above there is some discussion on these along with EPAs and DHAs, as being important for the diet. Without these Omega-3 fatty acids (primarily from plants) there would be nutritional deficiencies or arrested development. Not to get too off topic, but I understand a little about DHAs in human development. These are present in breastmilk, and aid in brain development. In fact, baby formula manufacturers are now adding these to the "DHA" formula mix.

Quote from one of the Advanced Aquarist articles I linked above:

DHA has been shown to be important in the normal growth and development of the central nervous system, and in particular the brain, eyes and reproductive organs, while EPA is important to cardiovascular health and plays an essential role in certain immune responses. Among the common symptoms of EPA/DHA deficiency in marine animals are1) Sudden fright syndrome - shock, convulsion or even death when the animals are frightened; 2) poor vision, and reduced ability to locate prey; 3) worn or mysteriously eroding fins; 4) poor growth rates or sudden massive die offs during early development; 5) low egg viability or infertility; 6) high mortality and disease rates, particularly when under stress (e.g., shipping or acclimation), and 7) inability to properly heal after being wounded (reviewed by Rainuzzo et al. 1997; Masuda et al. 1998; Fredalina et al. 1999; Furuita et al. 1999; Sargent et al. 1999; Ishizaki et al. 2001; Holt 2003). By "enriching" food items such as Artemia with phytoplankton prior to feeding them to the marine animals being raised, the amount of EPA & DHA is often increased to the point that die-offs and developmental problems previously encountered are completely avoided (reviewed by Rainuzzo et al. 1997; Sargent et al. 1999; Holt 2003).

Also, I found this interesting:

However, additional research has shown that it is not sufficient to simply add a lot of EPA & DHA to the diet of marine fish. Our understanding of the role of these essential fatty acids in the diet of marine fishes has evolved from trying to determine the optimal levels of EPA & DHA in the diet to consideration of the relative ratio of EPA & DHA as well as AA (arachidonic acid: 20:4 n-6) in the diet of marine animals (Sargent et al. 1999). Simply adding these fatty acids without consideration of the ratios provided in the diet of captive marine species may ultimately be more harmful than helpful. In a recent review by Sargent and colleagues (1999), they conclude that a mixed diet is required for the healthy maintenance of marine fish species. They concluded that the best diet for larval marine fish is one that contains roughly 10% of the dry weight as Omega-3 highly unsaturated fatty acids with less than 5% triacylglycerols. Any other mixture resulted in a nutritional imbalance that can, in some cases, be as serious as the absence of these essential fatty acids from the diet in the first place (reviewed by Rainuzzo et al. 1997; Kobayashi et al. 2000).

So, according to this, it isn't simply making sure they are present, but making sure they are present in the right ratios (at least for larval marine fish).

 

[DonW]

Your way over my head Nikki. I do know that oysters contain much higher concentrations of Omega3 and fatty acids than other shelled critters. My theory is that they contain these because its whats in their enviroment. Why not use them as a food source. If they are fresh and blended they make a gross bloody mixture. This really seems to stimulate coral feeding. I think the reefers in Italy that are using HGH also suppliment with oysters. I wouldnt use HGH but I do feed oysters.

Don

 

[wrassehole]

i feed twice a day, frozen meatys (mysis and brine) in the morning and krill and pellets at night, once the actinics are the only light source.

 

[Ritsuko Nashida]

Well I guess I will add a little...

I blend up my own fish food, using a couple of different types of fish fillets, some various types of shrimp, scallops, oysters, squid, Krill. Of course I get all of the juice from these guys and drain that in the processer too along with 5 mil of Reef Plus form SeaChem. I am pretty stingy with the food that I feed all of my tanks. Everyone seems to get enough to stay healthy although youd think they aint been fed in weeks!

The Groupers and Eel get a rotated ration of the above same ingredints its just been chopped into larger pieces. Again I am pretty tight with the food.

Growth and colors on the Miniatus Groupers and the clowns seem to be more vivid than when purchased considerably as they are intense. Growth has been excellent as well with all growing quickly. All appear to be alert and active so I guess I am doing alright here on this... I havent had any algae out breaks to speak of, not that I am complaining of course, but most of my systems also have huge refugiums plumped into them with tons of mangroves, macro algaes and live rock rubble, so prehaps this is a mitigating factor in that.

 

[NaH2O]

OK - so we've touched on some points about feeding appropriately to certain species kept, and finding the balance between too much food and too little. What about storage?? How long can we store food without it "going bad"? How do you store your food, and for how long?

 

[Forestal]

I wanted to add my info about feeding. I feed a combination of flake food and ground up seafood specials at the supermarket. Also since i have nonphotosynth. corals, i feed a 1/2 tsp cyclopeeze mixed with 3 tsp phyto (previously nannochlorpsis, but am now growing (or trying to )isochrsyis to get a better balance of epa and dha fatty acids). i feed this 2 x daily. no nuisance algae, however if i miss a feeding, i get a small bloom of cyano. i use a dsb.

storing cyclopeeze the dry kind is my question - should it be refrig? i don't.
Mysid shrimp i was using to feed, but find if they are not all eaten, they spoil quickly (or if the bag is allowed to thaw even small amt.) when using these for seahorses, i would siphon out uneaten ones.

My phyto is refrig. after collection, and will last 1-2 weeks.

Not a lot of experience, but found rotifers dont live more than 2-4 days in fridge, same with artemia, altho collecting young artemia - bbs - and soaking them in a solution of HUFA for 2 days, makes them more nutritious and keeps them small.

 

[NaH2O]

Forestal - I think it is interesting that you see cyano when you miss a feeding.

How many of you rinse your fresh seafood to wash away any of the phosphate spray put on after catch? If you rinse, how long do you rinse for?

I'm so excited - I found this article and it is perfect for this discussion. It was written by our very own Terry B: Feed Your Fish Better

Here is a couple of quotes on food storage:

Storing foods improperly will severely shorten the shelf life of foods. Sunlight, heat and oxygen break down vitamins and oils. Do you store your flake and freeze-dried fish foods at room temperature? How about the vitamins that you use to supplement the animals' diets? Store dried foods (flake and freeze-dried) in the freezer to better preserve the nutritional value. All non-frozen foods should be refrigerated. Do you reseal the food in plastic bags, before placing it in your refrigerator or freezer? What about flake food? Do you make sure that the lid is put back on tightly after each use? Fresh seafood should be frozen before use to kill potential pathogens that may be in the food.

Freezer burn will dry out frozen foods as well as destroy the nutritional value. Take care to properly reseal any unused portions of frozen food after opening the packaging. You can purchase freezer paper and/or bags at your local grocery store. Frozen foods do not stay wholesome indefinitely. It is advisable to use any prepared or frozen seafood within three months.

YIKES! The following quote never occured to me....I thaw at room temp. Of course I thaw food for my family in the refrigerator, but never thought about the fish food.

Do you thaw your frozen fish foods in water? You are certainly not alone. It would be my guess that the majority of us thaw these foods out in water at least occasionally, if not consistently. Thawing foods in this manner causes water-soluble vitamins, especially B12 and C, to leach from the food into the water, thus preventing them from reaching the fish.. Thaw frozen foods out in the refrigerator instead.

Don't be tempted to rush things by thawing frozen foods out at room temperature or higher. Bacteria on the outer margins of frozen foods thawed at room temperature will quickly reach dangerous levels while the inner portion is still yet frozen. Bacteria grow rapidly in temperatures between 45 and 145F, quickly turning the food rancid. Don't trust your nose to tell you whether or not these foods are still good. Smell is not always the best indicator. A good "rule of thumb" here is "when in doubt, throw it out". If you feed your fish foods that harbor large populations of bacteria, or are simply spoiled, it could result in an internal bacterial infection, food poisoning, or even the death of animals that have eaten tainted food.

Other points I found interesting are that Vitamin C and Vitamin E play a role in alleviating and controlling stress in fish. HUFAs have been proven to help the fish deal with stresses. Also, tyrosine and carotenoid are used for coloration (the article talks a little more about this).

The article is definately worth a read.

 

[Curtswearing]

storing cyclopeeze the dry kind is my question - should it be refrig? i don't.

We are probably going to have to ask TerryB. I have never used the dry kind (only the frozen). I took my frozen bar and cut it up into a lot of tiny servings. I have a Foodsaver Vacuum Sealer and froze all of these portions into very small portions. The plastic is very thick that you use from the Foodsaver but now I'm wondering if my product is usefull at all. I wonder if you could take out what you feed in a couple of months, put it in a freezer bag after each use, store it in the fridge and put the rest in one of those thick freezer bags and put it in the freezer. I truly don't know the answer, I'm just wondering out loud.

Mysid shrimp i was using to feed, but find if they are not all eaten, they spoil quickly (or if the bag is allowed to thaw even small amt.) when using these for seahorses, i would siphon out uneaten ones.

Dan, I really wish I would have had the chance to talk with you more at MACNA. I WILL have a seahorse tank eventually. As you know, I was either fragging my head-off or had other duties. I did tons of research and joined Seahorse.Org and found that my spare nano was really not sufficient. However, I have had the bug for quite a while now so I'm sure it's only a matter of time.

YIKES! The following quote never occured to me....I thaw at room temp. Of course I thaw food for my family in the refrigerator, but never thought about the fish food.

Wow!!! Me neither. I obviously know that we should thaw in RO/DI water as opposed to tank water to remove the excess phosphates but I never once thought about doing it in the fridge. (However, I have been tempted many times because my tank water is 80 degrees and my RO/DI trashcan is not...it would be nice for it to thaw quicker). Doing it in the fridge will take even longer but I'm willing to do it if it is a benefit to my tank.

As many of you know, I definately prefer blender mush because I can control the ingredients and phosphate levels of the foods. The only store-bought food is Cyclopeeze and I use it so sparingly that I'm curious (based on TerryB's article) if there is any nutritional value left.

Great thread Nikki!!!

 

[Forestal]

Nicki, super info, makes me want to buy all new flake food and start storing in the freezer. also the thawing info makes sense. new mysis i get will put next day's dos in the fridge over night to thaw. cool

Curt, I lost all 5 of my H.kuda's to a bacterial infection that happened overnight. they were healthy and breeding too. so for species that are so fragile, small things like optimizing food's value and free from contamination is super important.
I will be getting 2 erectus this december tho

 

[Curtswearing]

What a bummer. Good luck with the new ones. It must have been a horrible experience.

 

[cronicreef]

wow I have so many question now as I always do.
I really need to work on food storage and food prep.

As some of you might now I have a blue tang that is looking unhealthy.

The blue tang has caved in spots above the mouth and below the eyes. I have forgotten the Sciencetific name. But I will assume you all know it by heart.

I have been feeding marine algae (nori right?) and all sorts of frozen foods along with dried foods. I have been feeding around 3 time a day, small portions. But have not prepping anything like posted above.

I understand the idea behind soaking nori in RO water but I still haven't heard much about Silicon. Is that just a liquid that I can add into the RO water that I soak my food in.

Up tell now I have been just breaking up my frozen food and soaking my nori in my tank water in a cup. But now I have alot more I need to start doing and reading up on.

Also is there anything I can do for my tang that I'm not already? I'm really trying to get him nice and healthy.

 

[Forestal]

Selco is a supplement that is made of up of HUFA . having nori on a clip to last all day plus supplemental feeding of flake/frozen i would think should be enough, but i am no expert on tangs.
It may be worth adding selco to frozen food in smalle amounts while thawing int he fridge, but be careful, adding pure selco to the tank will tend to foul the water fairly quickly.

Curt, yes it completley stunk. took me 3 months now just to reconsider getting more, but are the most wonderful to watch in my opinion

 

[Terry B]

Hi all,

I have had time to re-think storing foods in refrigeration. I found that refrigerating the food helps, but it can tend to contribute to the foods becoming moist. Since moisture is something that helps many bacteria to grow (they don't grow as fast between 45 and 145F) I now store all foods, including flake and freeze-dried, in the freezer.

Cheers,
Terry B

 

[Craig Manoukian]

I thaw my frozen mysis and clams in warm tap water. I drain the water to get rid of phosphates. I add Zoe vitamins to fortify twice weekly. My tap water reads only 35 - 50 ppm on my TDS.

I squirt the frozen cyclopeeze directly into the tank, and the fish go bonkers. The same for the phytoplankton for the clams.

So far all fish are growing and have great color.

 

[NaH2O]

Thanks, Terry - I think we all can benefit from properly storing our foods.

I thaw my frozen mysis and clams in warm tap water. I drain the water to get rid of phosphates.

Craig - did you mean to say tap water or RO/DI? RO/DI will remove the phosphate coatings because the water is stripped.