Lets talk about ~Lighting~

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Better than I could say it for sure:), now for someone not so picky what would you recommend, lets say hey as long as it isn't too much of any one color visually & I have a verity of corals & my tank is average size?
 
Mike - Yeah, that was Good!

Scott, still haven't read your links but will - Thanks!
 
Scott the first thing I would say is what kind of corals are you going to keep.???

Mike
 
Well after doing some reading, It seems that trying to have a mixture of hard & softies isn't a good idea. So, I guess we could say just sps
 
Ahh so SPS but your not worried about color to much. Looking for growth? and how deep is the tank. need to know the dsb height to if applicable


Mike
 
I found this thread very interesting. I wish I had been here from the start.

I am a bit confused about the "flash" of light to kick start the process. Excuse my lack of knowledge about animal systems but I am always trying to convert it to plants (see below) and I guess since zooanthea (sp?) are chlorophyll containing organisms it might apply.

Plant pigments absorb light, as photons, one at a time one per reaction center. The photon carries with it a specific amount of energy required to do a particular job, excite an electron for example. The energy of a photon does not change per se and can be expressed as it's wavelength. If a photon of light in the blue wavelength strikes the specific reaction center it will cause the job to be done, regardless if whether the plant wanted it to or not. If the intensity is low, the PS rate is low, but it still happens and does not need a certain level to start (like double shot espresso in the morning). The intensity does not relate to the amount of energy packed by the photon.

The other thing I am having problems getting my brain around is this Kelvin rating of light. I know kelvin is a measurement of temperature. It can be used to determine the output of an energy source. It can also be used to describe the appearance of the energy source. The sun has a 6500K correlated color temperature.

I found this on the internet (where else??) "Many of you might have heard of the expression "red hot", or seen in films the yellowish colour of molten steel. In fact the hotter an object is, the more it radiates at lower wavelengths. So "blue hot" would be very hot indeed! The sun has a surface temperature of about 5800 Kelvins, which make it somewhat "white hot"." Not sure I get the "white hot" part here, anyway.

Also "cool white" lights have a higher K than "warm" lights.

So a 10000K bulb has a greater range of energy in the red end of the PAR and less in the more energetic blues. Waves in the blues carry more energy than reds.

Does this make sense? The temperature of the bulb in K is really just a description of its spectral output, with its numbers increasing with less energetic PAR or towards the red end, but not intensity (see below).

Sorry I am rambling, trying to make sense out of this.

There are some problems in the words being used in this discussion. As a plant scientist, I deal with light and it's effects on growth.

PAR = Photosynthetically Active Radiation. PAR is measured counting only those wavelengths affecting photosynthesis. Often considered to be anything in the 400-700nm wavelength, however more specifically since photosynthesis doesn’t really occur under all wavelengths, we often only consider those in between the red and blue range (435 - 650).


Intensity = the amount of light striking an object. The further away you are from a 40 watt bulb the less intense the light is. But you are not changing the spectal output of the bulb.

Wattage or output or lumens= is the amount of light generated by the light source. A 40 watt bulb generates 40 watts per meter squared. A 400W bulb will generate 400W of light but the intensity of the light is dependant on the distance from the object to the light. If the 400W bulb were 100' away and the 40W were 2 inches the intensity of the 40W would be higher.

Thus changing my lights to a lower K rating (6500K vs 10000K) will change my spectral output (more blue) but not my intensity.

Thanks for letting me ramble and I appreciate all the work you all put in here.
 
Great post Doka. let me join in with you.
I am a bit confused about the "flash" of light to kick start the process. Excuse my lack of knowledge about animal systems but I am always trying to convert it to plants (see below) and I guess since zooanthea (sp?) are chlorophyll containing organisms it might apply.
pretty much dead on, but zoox also have another pigment in them besides chlorophyll, they carry a pigment called carotenoid peridinin. The dinoflagellates however, incorporate peridinin pigments into the photosynthetic light collecting molecules that comprise their light collecting antennae. These molecules consist of peridinin-chlorophyll protein complexes. actually about a 4 to 1 ratio, this is where it differs from land based plants. this combination perfers light waves from the violet through blue range, with small ammounts of red and green . I would imagine the adaptation to living in a world that is blue and violet dominant. The concept of the flash is that in take an ammount of light at a certain intencity to excite the excitons once done the transfer to reaction center pigments by inductive resonance. Unlike land based plants corals do not continue to need input via thier symbiount algae (remember thier a guest). So a flash of light will begin the process, but thier is a limit the coral will want of what the algae gives. If the light is intence the zoox will be performing at thier peek efficiency. But the coral has the light switch (retracting polyps and so on) to slow or stop the rate. So from a purely energy budjet stand point you could get the process started with a flash and then just supply normal average light intencity for the balance of the time for the CORAL to get all it needs from the photosynthitic process. does that make sence??
The other thing I am having problems getting my brain around is this Kelvin rating of light. I know kelvin is a measurement of temperature. It can be used to determine the output of an energy source. It can also be used to describe the appearance of the energy source. The sun has a 6500K correlated color temperature.
yea your right on here, but we are trying to translate that to available light bulbs. Just because a bulb says its a 15000K does not really mean that is what it is, most of the time its not even close. that why for myself I think looking at the wave length charts is a far better method of choosing the colors you want. how it relates to intencity again relates to th bulb itself and not so much as the concept of kelvin rating. bulbs with lower K rating say such as a 6500K are more intence then say that of a 20000K bulb?? so bulb not concept.
PAR = Photosynthetically Active Radiation. PAR is measured counting only those wavelengths affecting photosynthesis. Often considered to be anything in the 400-700nm wavelength, however more specifically since photosynthesis doesn’t really occur under all wavelengths, we often only consider those in between the red and blue range (435 - 650).
Ahh I see where you were looking. in corals its more down in the violet and blue with a tad in the red and green. but you are correct on the terminology. Again I was relating more towards the bulds that are closer to par.
Thus changing my lights to a lower K rating (6500K vs 10000K) will change my spectral output (more blue) but not my intensity.
In theory yes but not when looking at bulbs. in the MH's we use it has been tested and shown that the lower the K reading the more intence the bulbs are.

great to have you in the talk

Mike
 
Doka, that was nicely put.
Einstein's is a true measurement of light but not necessarily what fish & coral people look for. It is funny how frequency has a big part in how intense light will be at any given distance. What is more crazy is higher Kelvin lamps produce higher losses so the ratios of loss compared to wattage varies according to the K of a bulb, blue light fades away quickly as compared to red lights, why a 65k bulb looks yellowish because it is higher intensity per watt the a 10k lamp. I think for the most part people want a bulb that looks good & can supply enough of a PAR rating that the can almost do away with supplemental lighting, such as PC, VHO etc. but I have to disagree with this idea, I think a more natural setting is a combination of lighting including your early morning light such as VHO, then later the Hot Intense light from a MH and later reversing the process.
 
Ok, so far so good... One thing I don't know is how far the different wavelengths of light penetrate the water.

Scooterman: great links by the way. In the Ian Ashdown
Lighting article there is a chart showing the penetration of the wavelengths of light from 4 locations. Only one location shows any difference in penetration into water of the wavelengths. My guess is that some waves travel farther into the water than others but that it might not be significant at our shallow tank levels.

The other thing I am unclear on is your comment "It is funny how frequency has a big part in how intense light will be at any given distance......blue light fades away quickly as compared to red lights."

I am unclear here. Can you relate this to the bulb spectrum. Mojoreef said that the ushio 250W is a better light (more intensity striking the surface of the water) than a 400W Radium. I was thinking that this was because the light spectrum of the Ushino was better for coral growth and not necessarily because is generated more light. Looking at the charts provided by mojoreef, the ushio has a nice peak in the red/orange range that is lacking in the radium, but I thought more importanly the ushio has a much greater amount of light in the blue/violet (350-425 range) area compared to the radium which has a peak at 450.

Maybe the uv light in the ushio can replace the actinic bulbs? And that the light from the ushio is better because of the spike in the red end?

thanks for your assistance here.

peter
 
so here is my question , if you had a 17" deep, 36" long aquarium what would ya'll put on it as far as lights go?
i have a canopy, i would like some sps as well as lots of softies, and maybe a clam or six...i have looked at tons and tons of light fixtures as well as dIY stuff....i have between $200 and $300 to spend. :razz:
 
have we talked about lighting cycles yet? i didn't see anything or maybe i just missed it. right now i'm running my halides for about 8 hours and my actinitics for about 11 hours. i'm still acclimiating my tank to the new halides so i'll slowly bump them up to a 9 or 10 hour schedule. is this too long or not long enough? how do we determine what is a good 'cycle' for lights?
 
How about the life span of metal halids. How often should they be replaced? Do German bulbs last longer than American? Do double ended bulbs last longer than regular. I
I know the manufacturers would like you to change them every 3
months LOL
John
 
Tanglover mixing SPS and softies is not a good plan. SPS dont have the defences against what a softy can through at them. At 17 inches deep most 150/175 watt MH's would work fine for most light demanding stuff like clams or SPS. For softies you could go a set of VHO's or some new T-5's

Matt my lights come on in series and go off the same way, but over all I run mine 12 hours for the actinic's and 10 for the MH's

Johnny German MH's are usually overdriven here so thier life span is not the best. 20K bulbs run on a standard ballast usually last abut 9 to 1 months. most other MH's can go for 12 to 16.


Mike
 
mojoreef said:
Johnny German MH's are usually overdriven here so their life span is not the best. 20K bulbs run on a standard ballast usually last abut 9 to 1 months. most other MH's can go for 12 to 16.


Mike

thats a pretty broad statement and not entirely accurate in all cases. German 400 watt bulbs tend to be overdriven but the 250 watt bulbs are either under driven or properly driven.

for whats it is worth I ran 250watt AB's on HQI ballasts (real HQI ballasts, of which there is no such thing for 400 watt bulbs) and after two years I only had a decrease in PAR of 17%.

I think we have to start looking at bulbs no only by there color output but also by there wattage and how they are being driven otherwise we get generalizations that are misleading in some cases.

Steve
 
thats a pretty broad statement and not entirely accurate in all cases. German 400 watt bulbs tend to be overdriven but the 250 watt bulbs are either under driven or properly driven.
Thus the carefull use of the word "Usually" and the bulb reference of "20K" :lol: :lol:

Lead the way Steve on the wattage and output. I have never been a good one for that.


take care

Mike
 
Long wavelengths at Low frequencys will not travel or penetrate water as higher frequencies & shorter wavelengths. I wasn't clear on that part.
 
Sometimes I say things before I actually think about what I'm saying or saying what I'm not thinking, I think!
 

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