LFS needs help

[iworkforanLFS]

I hope it is alright to post this, I don’t know where else to go for help.
At the end of last year I began working for a LFS. This store had been closed and a new owner acquired the store and just recently reopened. The owner had been a hobbyist both fresh water and marine for years and has worked hard to reopen the shop a lot cleaner then it was before with better pricing and service.
Since then I have been trying to help him figure out exactly how to run the business and give him my input on things although I am no expert. He is working extremely hard and extremely long hours, but is struggling through advice from distributors, sales reps, a small business association, reef clubs, accountants, other stores……

Some of the biggest things that needs to be resolved.

1.
The owner has been told by several people to run the marine displays in hypo and the fish only system in both copper and hypo… (I have heard in several places never to combine the two and read items from big authors on other sites that hypo should never be used)
He really wanted to avoid this, but we are losing fish even though most of our water parameters have been sitting stable.(Except for salinity and temp)

2.
I had always heard that stores make there largest profit off of dry goods and usually not off of their live stock. I’m being told now at the store that just simply is not the case. (Keep in mind we sell both fresh and salt and currently it seems our audience is about 50/50, but I expect the fresh water will rise as people learn the store is open or even there.)


3.
We are losing a large number on specific species of hermits and snails. I had believed this originally to be the fault of poor acclimation practices, but even those that made it after the first 2 weeks seemed to eventually die off. Currently I am thinking it may be temperature, salinity, or a combination of both. I just recently found out that the salt system is at times as low as 74*F or lower and the specific gravity they try to maintain at a level of 1.023-1.022. Thoughts?

Other issues to be posted later.

Where can we go for advice? People say they want to help LFS. There are only two decent stores in our area. It is rumored that the competition is about to go out of biz and the store that I work for will be all that is left. We are working hard to keep our heads up, but the owner is serious questions his decision to open the store.

 

[ret25yo]

actually many LFS start off as maintenance specialists.. thats were a majority of money comes in. Dry goods are supplimental income (these either sell themselves or you have good salespeople to sell them. As with anything in business YOU MUST CATCH THE EYE OF THE CUSTOMER. you have to WOW them. make them wonder and make them want to ask questions. a Large well maintaned display only tank is generally used for this purpose. Layout of the store also matters for business. dry goods need to be seen from almost anywhere in the store. (just some tips tricks)

 

[matts125]

great advice Kyle!

I want to point something out, If you are losing large amounts of hermits this raises the question Is there something contaminating the water? Copper? maybe other types of metal in contact with the water? (hermits should not be dieing like that, they are very hardy)

matt

 

[SeaMonster]

sad but internet companies have won this battle long ago

 

[WA coral]

A lfs I have been helping out was losing fish as well but started acclimateing with air stones in the water and using an additive ( I cant remember the name of it ) I will post again when it comes to mind and the number of loss was greatly decreased total time in acclimation was approx 2-3 hrs for temp salinity gradually adding store water. all of this being done in 5 gallon buckets.

 

[matts125]

A lfs I have been helping out was losing fish as well but started acclimateing with air stones in the water and using an additive ( I cant remember the name of it ) I will post again when it comes to mind and the number of loss was greatly decreased total time in acclimation was approx 2-3 hrs for temp salinity gradually adding store water. all of this being done in 5 gallon buckets.

Andy are you thinking of Marine max as the addative?

Matt

 

[WA coral]

I know its not marine max and it comes in a big clear bottle it kinda blue in color and has one of those squeze to measure things on the top I dont know why I cant remember I will check into it today it is starting to bug me now

 

[iworkforanLFS]

Haven't heard anything yet about hypo or copper. Thoughts?

 

[Curtswearing]

There will ALWAYS be a new problem. That's just part of owning or working at a saltwater fish store. Wish it wasn't true.....but it is. (I don't know diddly about freshwater so I can't help you there).

REPEAT AFTER ME 3 TIMES.....
When an emergency happens I need to calm down, analyze the situation, then calmly make a plan. If I'm frazzled, I cannot think to the best of my ability and I won't be able to make a proper plan nor carry it out.

ACTUALLY REPEAT IT 10 TIMES

We are losing a large number on specific species of hermits and snails. I had believed this originally to be the fault of poor acclimation practices, but even those that made it after the first 2 weeks seemed to eventually die off. Currently I am thinking it may be temperature, salinity, or a combination of both. I just recently found out that the salt system is at times as low as 74*F or lower and the specific gravity they try to maintain at a level of 1.023-1.022. Thoughts?

Too low.....try 1.025~1.026. Your stars and shrimp are probably all dieing too, correct? Have you gone in at 6 in the morning and tested the nighttime pH? If not, do it tomorrow.

The owner has been told by several people to run the marine displays in hypo and the fish only system in both copper and hypo… (I have heard in several places never to combine the two and read items from big authors on other sites that hypo should never be used)
He really wanted to avoid this, but we are losing fish even though most of our water parameters have been sitting stable.(Except for salinity and temp)

Definately don't do that. Sell fish at 1.016 SG to people you know won't acclimate them slowly over time. (Fish tolerate downward salinity shifts a WHOLE LOT BETTER than increases in salinity). Then, when the fish dies in their tank......IT'S YOUR FAULT!!! One of my competitors luckily does this for me. I get lots of customers who arrive saying "Any fish I buy from XYZ dies....I'm never going back there again".

On top of that, definately don't run hypo and copper at the same time.....big no, no. It will equal even more dead fish.

Never perform a copper treatment in a hyposaline solution. The copper becomes lethal to marine fishes in such a low salt concentration.Hyposalinity only cures one parasite -- Marine Ich (Cryptocaryon irritans). Copper kills Marine Ich also, so there is no purpose in doing both the copper AND a hyposalinity treatment at the same time (see above red)

I HIGHLY recommend reading this entire thread. http://www.reeffrontiers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=27005

With all of the above said, I admire what you are doing. There have been mornings where I walked in the door aghast at what happened wrong overnight. Sometimes it makes you want to pull your hair out.....I'm not kidding. But you just deal with it and move on....that's all you can do. Actually you can do one more thing....asking for help. That's a good thing....BUT MAKE SURE THE PERSON TRYING TO HELP KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING!!! We're the newest store in town and we're trouncing our firmly entrenched competitors. Many of them have been in business for years upon years upon years.

 

[WA coral]

hydro plex is what they are using with air stones for acclimation with great results

 

[iworkforanLFS]

Finding advice is rough. I've reasd the article your referring to... actually probably read it about 3-4 times. I lost a angelfish after a low hard struggle with ich. I currently have a tang and an ell in hypo following his methods. I told the shop owner about that article, but I suppose he trusts this wholesaler or whoever it was more then Lee.

That was another question I had meant to ask. In another forum I saw Eric Borneman recommending to someone that they advice there LFS to change suppliers if the inverts and corals were shipped in anything less then reef salinity. Every supplier we have used has shipped us corals and inverts in low salinity.(with one exception of a local collector who only deals with clean up crews) Where can we find different wholesalers and distributors?

I've been pushing the owner hard to try to get a supplier for digital pH meters, so it's difficult to grasp what is going on there, but hopefully soon will have that solved.

I suppose I should make another post about this, but I need to figure out a cheap engergy efficient way to heat a large system. We may just have to lay a large number of visa-therm heaters in the sump or try some inline units, but I've got to ask around about this one.

Thanks for the input.

 

[WPH]

Aloha ....just wanted to give my advice to you on your store.....hypo will be benificial to some fish but not to others....it is a good practice to eliminate potential parasite but bad for the fishes protective slime coat..Think about this you keep yu fish in low salinity and a customer buys the fish and takes the fish home only to put the fish in a tank with normal salinity...(this is not good for the fish as it will go into shock,or cause stress....and there is a good chance the fish will die because it cannot adjust to sudden changes in water parameters...a lot of hobbyist do not take the time to properly acclimate a fish before removing it from the bag and putting it in their tank..only the die hard hobbyist will take hours if necessary to properly acclimate their new livestock purchased....so I dont recommend hypo in your system...

do not use hypo on butterfly fish....as it will strip their body slime coat the worst often times leaving the fish color looking dull or faded....all you need to do is freshwater dip the new arrivals(all fish)TO KILL OFF ANY EXTERNAL PARASITES OR INTERNAL WORMS SUCH AS FLUKES... and keep them in a quarantine tank for a few days OR AS LONG AS NEEDED with a slime coat replenishment additive and some wide spectrum antibiotic such as furazone or erythromycin to heal the area where a parasite existed..... do this before introducing them to your main system for sale some Pet stores want to quickly jump the gun and start selling their livestock right out of the bag...a customer will lose this fish and not return to your store..the key to your successful reputation is to be patient and condition the fish first before sale...if you sell just one very healthy well conditioned fish to a hobbyist there is a great chance that hobbyist will return to your store and not only by him/herself but with friends who are also in the hobby...for every one satisfied customer they will refer you atleast two times... .....MAKE SURE THAT YOU QUARANTINE THE LIVESTOCL FIRST AND WHILE THEY ARE BEING QUARANTINED THAT YOU FEED THEM A LOT OF FOOD.....LIVESTOCK THAT ARRIVES TO YOU HAVE NOT EATEN FOR A MINIMUM OF 4 DAYS....BECAUSE THE DIVERS OR WHOLESALERS HAVE TO PURGE THE FISH FOR 3-4 DAYS BEFORE SHIPPING THEM IN A BAG WHICH MEANS THAT THE FISH ARE NOT FED AT ALL...WHEN A FISH IS IN A SMALL CONFINED SPACE(SHIP BAG)THEY WILL POOP A LOT CAUSING THE FISH TO DIE DURING TRANSIT OR ARRIVE WITH AMMONIA BURNS THAT IS WHY THEY ARE NOT FED TO CLEAN OUT THEIR SYSTEM.....AND IF YOU ARE ORDERING FROM A SUPPLIER THAT SENDS YOU FISH WITH FADED BLOTCHES ON THE FISHES SIDES THAT LOOKS LIKE A FINGERPRINT..IT IS...THE SUPPLIER IS GETTING THE FISH FROM A DIVER WHO ROUGH HANDLE THE LIVESTOCK AND "FINGERPRINTS" ESPECIALLY ON TANGS DO NOT GO AWAY IT IS PERMANENT.ALSO WATCH LIVESTOCK FOR BLOATED STOMACHS OR SWIMMING "WIGGLING" WITH THEIR HEADS UP OR HEADS DOWN THEY WERE NOT PROPERLY DECOMPRESSED FROM THE DIVER OR COLLECTOR THAT SENDS FISH TO YOUR SUPPLIER AND WILL SUFFER FROM BLADDER ISSUES...ANYWAYS BACK TO THE FISH BEING QUARANTINED FIRST...THEY MUST BE FED AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE (OVER FEED THEM DURING THE QUARANTINE PROCESS)AND DO FREQUENT WATER CHANGES IN YOUR QUARANTINE TANK TO AVOID ANY AMMONIA PRESENCE....THE TRICK IS TO GET THE FISH TO EAT BEFORE PUTTING IT IN YOUR MAIN TANK FOR SALE...CUSTOMERS WILL BUY A FISH THAT THEY SEE ARE EATING. BRIGHTLY COLORED....(LIGHTING IN THE SYSTEM CAN ALTER OR IMPROVE A FISHES COLOR APPEARENCE....

you have to bring up your salinity on the inverts...I have tested the salinity in the areas where our inverts are collected in Hawaii and they are always on the high side.....hermit crabs,shrimp,and snails thrive in .026-.028 our hawaiian waters is ..028(ocean water)you will have better success with the inverts....and no copper or additives whatsoever in your invert tanks as most inverts are sensitive to pH and any additive or copper will greatly alter the PH....causing your inverts to die...

next thing would be your fish system needs to isolated meaning that it is always better to have your fish in seperate self contained systems then all tapped into one big filter ststem...if a parasite should enter your system you can isolate it from spreading to your precious inventory.....


put the impulse or last minute ("oh yeah I forgot to get that item") stuff near the register like veggie clips,specialty food,tank additives,sea salt,etc....

and sell some of your items as a loss leader..... such as sea salt....additives,food,or aquarium tanks

A business strategy in which a business offers a product or service at a price that is not profitable for the sake of offering another product/service at a greater profit or to attract new customers. This is a common practice when a business first enters a market; a loss leader introduces new customers to a service or product in the hope of building a customer base and securing future recurring revenue.

you know if they can get their tanks for cheap they will buy everything else that they need from you at a profitable level....same goes for food and sea salt....the customer always has to have this products and you know if they come in and buy salt or food at a loss leader price they will certainly buy more stuff.....

lastly and most importantly it is customer service that will leave a lasting taste for your customers....bend over backwards out of the norm..address all their issues....hire very knowledable staff with lots and lots of patience... new cutomers will ask stupid questions...and ive seen pet store workers give stupid answers or makes a customer feel stupid that they dont know what a hydrometer is used for example....and cause the new customer to feel discouraged...and walk out.....

well I hope this helps you I wish you and your boss all the success....aloha Les

 

[Gordonious]

Would you qt every single fish? There are certain species that I know travel very well and eat after a minute of being in the tank. We usually only qt things that are in obvious need of treatment, but I think we may try to start doing more. Will be a tough sell to the owner, but I would rather only have healthy happy fish on the sales floor.

The other rough thing is that we have a massive fish system that contains the majority of the fish. Only a couple if fish get kept in the coral system, usually the more sensitive one. It would take a massive amount of construction to make the systems separate. The reason the owner decided to go with copper is he is worried there may be some sort of parasites in the system which is interconnected.
I have asked before for everyone to keep track of what they find dead in the tanks, but this is one thing that only I do. I think it will be easier to figure exactly where the loss is coming from and why if we had a complete list. I am writing an e-mail now to all of the employees and carbon copying the owner.


You think all of the systems should be kept at .028?


Thank you much for your comments. Appreciate them all.

 

[roscoe]

Are you the co-owner or a top manager there? Seems like you are more worried about his investment and best interest than he is. JMO If the owner isn't willing to take the proper procedure to take care of his business it will be even tougher for you to persuade him to do better.

 

[ret25yo]

well if the owner does not know how...thats a different story .... if your a business owner, you cant take everyone's advice without research and proof..

 

[roscoe]

well if the owner does not know how...thats a different story .... if your a business owner, you cant take everyone's advice without research and proof..

I understand what you are saying. That is just what I got from reading the what he wrote.

 

[iworkforanLFS]

The owner is there everyday from early in the morning till late at night. He takes his work home with him as well and does his accounting at home. He has talked with many suppliers as well as other local stores, but I don't think they are the best sources of information. When we are talking about trying to do more then artificially create the most complex eco system on the planet none of us can research every aspect of every topic. We do what we can when we can. There internet can be a useful toll, but it can make it hard to pull up the hard facts when people just post their gut feelings in forums.

There is no book on how to run a LFS in 2008 nor is there a website filled with information. The owner works hard to try to find good distributors and whole salers to bring in the best prices and products. Someone posted a little while ago that he should hire the best people he can. Well he didn't hire me to sit on my butt. I'm trying to help him out a little bit.

Realistically how many LFS do you think have room to properly qt every animal that comes in? What I was saying is it might be a little hard pressed to set up a ton of new tanks in the back room, and take care of them every day to properly qt animals. I think what will have to happen is for us to start doing it a little at a time witht he trickier animals and figure out what is cost effect to do considering salt, electric, water, and labor.

 

[WPH]

yes everything that enters the shop needs to be QT a fish my appear to look healthy but bay have internal parasites or just too stressed or not eating...you dont want to sell these to a customer because your reputation is upmost important to how your store business unfolds....

also as soon as there is a dead fish in the system it has to be removed not only because you dont want any customer to see dead fish (bad) but because of bacterial infections your other livestock could get.

only keep inverts at at .026-.028

keep fish at .024

system will always be better seperated.... because you are able to isolate a problem when it arises....if its one massive system the parasite enters and more fish will get affected....thus making them un-sellable

copper is ok to use in FO tanks but always needs to be monitored....everytime water changes are done copper test kit need to be in hand...or it will be ineffective..

aloha.....

Would you qt every single fish? There are certain species that I know travel very well and eat after a minute of being in the tank. We usually only qt things that are in obvious need of treatment, but I think we may try to start doing more. Will be a tough sell to the owner, but I would rather only have healthy happy fish on the sales floor.

The other rough thing is that we have a massive fish system that contains the majority of the fish. Only a couple if fish get kept in the coral system, usually the more sensitive one. It would take a massive amount of construction to make the systems separate. The reason the owner decided to go with copper is he is worried there may be some sort of parasites in the system which is interconnected.
I have asked before for everyone to keep track of what they find dead in the tanks, but this is one thing that only I do. I think it will be easier to figure exactly where the loss is coming from and why if we had a complete list. I am writing an e-mail now to all of the employees and carbon copying the owner.


You think all of the systems should be kept at .028?


Thank you much for your comments. Appreciate them all.

 

[iworkforanLFS]

Thanks again WPH. We are going to try to work on QTing animals in the near future. Unfortunately we still have other projects in the store which are of higher priority at this point. With in the next two months though we will start to qt all of the more sensitive animals which we have had problems with. If that works out well hopefully I will be able to convince the owner to qt everything in the future.

I also have started to talk with him about separating our large FO system into several smaller systems, but that is a large expense the store can not absorb at this point.

Thanks again