Lifeguard Medication

[beeps4u]

Hi,

Has anyone here used lifeguard (from instant ocean) to treat their fish? I'm considering using it to treat a possible case of velvet. Thanks for your help.

 

[steve-s]

Do not treat Velvet (Amyloodinium ocellatum) with anything but copper based medications (preferably Cupramine) in a proper quarantine tank. Chloroquine diphosphate is also an option but very hard to get a hold of so I wouldn't bother.

What are the symptoms?

 

[beeps4u]

It's my hippo tang. He's been scratching on rocks in the tank and has some very small white dots on him, somewhat evenly distributed. This morning, three larger (.75 cm in diameter) white splotches appeared on his side. The splotches looked like someone had marked him with white spray paint (opaque center, faded edges, etc.). The large splotches faded away by this afternoon, but the tiny white specs are still there. He is eating and swimming around just fine, but he has been spending some time (not all of his time) in the powerhead stream. I'm not sure if he's having trouble breathing, or if he just likes the current. His breath rate is normal.

His history: My tank has been recovering from an ich outbreak. All the fish have been in hyposalinity for four weeks and the main tank has been fallow for the same time period. I recently moved a few of the fish back to normal salinity and into the main tank. The blue tang looked fine under the lighting of the QT (dim lighting), but as soon as he was in the main tank I noticed the white specs. The brighter lighting made them more noticeable. He also began scratching on rocks (I'm really upset at this point, because now he's impossible to catch without dismantling the tank - AGAIN!). I then remembered that I had seen some scratching behaviour from him in the QT tank as well (while under hyposalinity conditions). I figured it was just the fish itching himself. I thought that ick was unlikely, since he had already been at hyposalinity conditions for 3 wks when I noticed the scratching. Also, this fish had never shown signs of ick during the outbreak and was simply being treated as a precaution with everyone else.

Considering that the white specs are much smaller than what I have normally seen with ick, the large splotches, and the extra time in the powerhead current, I'm inclined to think that this is more than ick. Velvet came to mind. Several months ago I purchased a naso tang that had the same large white splotches on his side. He seemed very happy for four days, then reappeared a few days later gasping on the bottom of the tank. If this fish has the same disease, I don't want use the "wait and see" approach. (Note: The naso tang episode was a long time ago, so the hippo tang never came into direct contact with the sick naso tang.)

Sorry for the long letter. Let me know what you think.
P.S. All tank parameters are normal.

 

[steve-s]

I'm pretty sure they still have C. irritans. Two very significant problems here.

Hyposalinity therapy should last 4 weeks past the last spot seen on the fish, not just a 4 week time span. Once that time frame has passed, the salinity is slowly risen upwards over the course of 7-10 days. Another two weeks should be allowed to pass which will ensure the treatment was successful and no secondary infection show up. That total time frame should be about 7-8 weeks unto itself.

Moving the fish back to quickly once treatment was done. The minimum life cycle of this parasite is 4 weeks so you need to fallow the display for longer than that. As a rule I suggest 8 weeks but 6 can often be enough. With the possibility treatment did not last long enough and the display was not fallowed long enough, your back to square one.

Unless you've recently added something (anything) new to the tank, there no possible way for Velvet to be the concern here. These are spots yes, not large blotchy patch's?

 

[beeps4u]

I should have mentioned this earlier, but the hippo tang actually was the new addition. I purchased him shortly before I began the quarantine for everyone (not the best idea, but he's done relatively well in the QT tank for the last four weeks).

He had both tiny white spots AND large white splotches this morning. The splotches did not look like ich spots that I've seen before. They were large, white patches. There was no shedding skin, no mucous, and no sores apparent. What do you think the splotches are?

It looks like I need to start all over with my ich quarantine. = ( I had thought I'd read that 3-4 weeks was sufficient. I hadn't realized that it was after the disappearance of the last visible spot. I'm starting QT right now (taking out rock to catch fish, etc), but I'm concerned that my tang may have more than just ich.

 

[steve-s]

It is possible there is something else. When newly acquired, not all that uncommon for C. irritans and A. ocellatum to coexist on the same fish, especially with tangs. If you've had this tang as long as that however (several weeks), you can rule A. ocellatum out. Velvet is a very very quick killer in a closed system. Hyposalinity won't really slow it down and it will not kill it.

A more realistic possibility would be either Uronema or Vibriosis. Does it look like a white rash or more like scales standing on end? Any sign of redness?
Was the tang ever in a tank with anemonefish?

 

[beeps4u]

I have a tomato clown that I've owned for about a year. He's tank bred and raised, and I purchased him as a tiny baby. He has been in the QT with my tang, but was removed when he started picking on other fish a couple weeks ago. He's much more aggressive in smaller tanks, apparently.

It looks more like a white rash in three large blotches on one side of the fish, and it has actually almost completely disappeared by now. I watched the blotches slowly fade away over the course of the day as I've been working on the tank (The tiny white spots that look more like ich are still there, though.)

What are the symptoms of uronema or vibriosis? Can it be treated easily?

 

[steve-s]

What are the symptoms of uronema or vibriosis? Can it be treated easily?

Uronema, Vibriosis nor Brooklynella will just fade on their own. I wouldn't worry about that just yet. Doubt that's the problem anyway. Sounds more likely to be depigmentation from stress. Play watch and see for now. If it returns and stays, we can nail it down then. My guess is you'll continue to see it come and go just as quickly as this time.

 

[beeps4u]

Thanks for your help. I really appreciate it. I'll keep you posted. For now I'll just start over with the ich treatment (very frustrating to have to start over - I should have been more patient). It's just been so difficult to keep them happy in the QT. I've had to do daily water changes for the past month just to keep the nitrates under control. Any suggestions on that? The fish are divided between a 55g and 20g tank. I've been running some bioballs in a tuperware attached to a powerhead and a small HOB filter.

 

[steve-s]

Ammonia is your biggest concern in a QT. Anything above 0.1 ppm should prompt an immediate large water change. Low nitrate is desirable to be sure but don't beat yourself trying to get it too low. You do not mention what the level actually is?

 

[beeps4u]

I've tried to keep it around 20, but it's gotten as high as 80 many times. Is there a maximum level that fish can tolerate? I've read that it's not that toxic, but I'm still concerned when it gets that high.

 

[beeps4u]

That's 20 and 80 ppm

 

[steve-s]

Nitrate levels are tolerable at varying levels by varying species. Some can indeed tolerate as high as 80-100 ppm while others do poorly in water above 15-20 ppm. A sensitive fish like a tang will very much appreciate and do well in a low nitrate environment.

The problem overall with high nitrate no matter the fish species is the corresponding DOC levels that undoubtedly come with it. These high organic levels feed opportunistic bacteria's allowing them to flourish. A healthy fish can fend them off if proper & well fed, low stress environment and no injury. At any time if that changes, the fish can quickly succumb to bacterial infections both external and internal. The worse the nitrate problem, the faster the progression. The cleaner you can keep the animals environment, the more long lived they are going to be. No reason not to try and keep that below 20 ppm or lower for FO or FOWLR systems. Corals and inverts will appreciate a much much lower level from 5 ppm to undetectable for more sensitive species.

If your nitrate is getting as high as 80 sometimes, find the cuase can often be aa cure unto itslef. Instead of trying to find ways of beating it, find whats causing it.