Limestone MUD??

[travis_]

I have being trying to find a very cheap alternative to mineral mud (Miracle mud, whatever). I was thinking about trying local ocean mud and curing for a long time to kill off anything that can not live at 80 F. But I have concerns about pollution and not sure what I would gain.

Then I started thinking, I have access to limestone by the tonnes. We take 2" limestone rock at my work and crush it into what we call Limestone flour. We have high purity limestome with high calcium and very low silica. It is mined from Texada Isl. I was thinking about using this flour as mud. Or maybe mix it with my ocean mud. I know it does make nice mud when mixed with water and since the origination of the limestone is from the ocean/reefs.

What do you think? I have plenty of flour if anyone wants to try. Pleant of limestone 2" rock too.

 

[lizardarm]

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/april2003/short.htm
http://www.fishchannel.com/saltwater-aquariums/aquarium-frontiers/calcium-reactor-substrates.aspx
Here's a couple of links to some reading on limestone in aquaria. There was a thread probably several years back now, and I don't even remember which forum it was in about a fellow who was using limestone (I think he was somewhere back east) in his reactor and was happy with the tested results that he got. Not the same approach that you're looking to take here. What exactly are you trying to gain from this mud? Calcium carbonate?

 

[travis_]

I am hoping to get the same benefits of a miracle mud refugium, mineral supplementation and denitration. Some of the same reasons people us kitty litter I guess, but with the added bonus of the calcium. All for free.

http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/april2003/short.htm
http://www.fishchannel.com/saltwater-aquariums/aquarium-frontiers/calcium-reactor-substrates.aspx
Here's a couple of links to some reading on limestone in aquaria. There was a thread probably several years back now, and I don't even remember which forum it was in about a fellow who was using limestone (I think he was somewhere back east) in his reactor and was happy with the tested results that he got. Not the same approach that you're looking to take here. What exactly are you trying to gain from this mud? Calcium carbonate?

 

[lizardarm]

http://www.labaquatics.com/
This is a link to a local company that does pretty comprehensive water testing for not much cost. You could mix up a batch of water with this mud in it and see what they say. Should give you a good idea about what it would be adding to your water column.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

Travis, before you follow the sales hype of Miracle mud, let me note my observations. EVERY tank I have observed that added the mud, eventually had one or more types of algae problem. The mud is NOT from any reef, it is land based. Expecting denitrification from the refugium's substrate is a stretch. The plants will help a lot though and they are best fed from the tank's nutrients to lower them in lieu of adding more.
Many will post success with it, but eventually they too go by the wayside. I know of a few that have used ocean based mud for a bacteria source including Paul, but they are few.

This is not based on any science, just my personal opinion. Similar to how the Miracle mud's pitch is opinion.

 

[Skimmy]

miracle mud is the devil...
someone put some in a gas spectrometer and the results were quite disturbing. large amounts of aluminum and zinc, and iron as i remember.
also, it is terrestrial, not aquatic as mike mentioned.

i personally prefer small bashed up live rock rubble for refugia media underneath the algae, you grow more pods, and easier to clean detritus instead of it just mixing with the mud

 

[travis_]

that is very informative regard the differing opinions on this miracle mud. I have a chemical analysis for the powder limestone we have. It is as follows:

AL2O3 – 0.22%, CaO-56.47%, Cr2O3-<.01%, Fe2O3 - .08%, K2O - .02%, MgO - .27%, MnO - <.01%, Na2O - .07%, P2O5-.02%, SiO2-.61%, TiO2 - <.01% LOI – 41.64% TOTAL 99.40%

At a minimum I thought this stuff would be good to mix with Portland cement to make live rock structures.

 

[mojoreef]

Travis I have looked at that powder also, the batch I had though was alot cleaner (Mined out of BC and sold in downtown Seattle) I do use their coarser product in my calcium reacter. The problem with such a fine substraight is that its going to be almost all anearobic, so you will run into ammonia recycling, instead of denitrification.

EVERY tank I have observed that added the mud, eventually had one or more types of algae problem

Thats the concept my friend. Any type of sand/mud/whatever substraights are designed to make P/N and so on available to algaes, then they can be removed, thats how the export.

Mike

 

[kaskiles]

Wouldn't a very fine particle size limestone powder have a tendency to solidify and form a hard cake in high pH/alk salt water. Just like normal fine sand beds harden, but enhanced due to reduced particle size.

 

[mojoreef]

yea, you would just have to get stirrers and/or stir it yourself to keep it somewhat areobic.

Mike

 

[travis_]

Travis I have looked at that powder also, the batch I had though was alot cleaner (Mined out of BC and sold in downtown Seattle)

Actually, this limestone is known as the purest in the area, it is also mined in BC (Texada) and sold in Seattle (JA JACKS & SON & others). Probably the same stuff you had. And yes, it is very fine. Like flour.

 

[travis_]

yea, you would just have to get stirrers and/or stir it yourself to keep it somewhat areobic.

Mike

Sounds like a major PITA, I don't think I will explore any further. I might use some of the larger rock in my refigium for the pods to hang out and multiply or use some of this powder and mix with concrete to make in tank structures.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

Sounds like a major PITA, I don't think I will explore any further. I might use some of the larger rock in my refigium for the pods to hang out and multiply or use some of this powder and mix with concrete to make in tank structures.

I used to run the mud in a refugium which I got free with some live rock, and had too much problems with non-desirable algaes in the display. When I took out the mud and replaced it with rock rubble and macro, all the bubble, hair, briopsis, etc gradually were consumed by my already present emerald crabs and tangs and finally disappeared.