Live Rock Busted!!

[csababubbles]

ret25yo, the live rock almost everyone in the hobby gets is not a very good way to get life into your tank. most of that rock has been sitting in the hot tropical sun for who knows how long and then the long wait it has during the change of hands from collector through retailer. There is not much life on there at all. It may seem funny, but the live rock with corals attached we buy usually bring in the most life because of of how much care was given to it because of the coral attached.

 

[jezzeaepi]

with live rock we (consumers) are paying for:
possibility of a really nice hitchhiker (like a pack of Baseball cards)

Or a REALLY bad one =P

 

[csababubbles]

right, a lot of people get live rock from TBS but look at the amount of unwanted hitck-hikers that come along with that rock. i think many of you are missing the point of why i set up this tank. I was trying to prove to myself, as well as to open up discussion on our use of live rock and sand. I have shown that live rock is not necessary to import life from the oceans to our tank (and is not even a very good way either), live rock and a sandbed are not necessary for denitrification in our tanks, and to explore alternatives to landscaping our tanks and importing microfuana to our displays.

I don't know why some of you guys think there is nothing to mature. For example, there are literally hundreds of tiny bright red feather dusters all over the plastic back wall of the tank. A month or two ago there were none that I could see. So guys, the tank is developing and maturing in its own way. Don't think the tank is just sitting empty in terms of life but if you look closely you could see tons of pods, feather dusters, amphipods, etc.

 

[warforged]

Im gona have to watch this experiment unfold... interesting. I wonder what will happen when you increase the bio load with that set up.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

Wheres the pictures?

 

[Reeferdude]

Light load no problems. Heavy load, better get a good skimmer and or some rock...

 

[csababubbles]

In terms of increasing bioload, I think the tank is maxed out as it is in terms of territory. I don't like crowded tanks personally so I probably won't be adding too many more fish. I may transfer over my hectors goby but he's not much of a bioload either so it wont hardly make a difference in terms of bioload. my goal is not to load up the tank with so many fish just to see how much load the tank can handle. that would not only be cruel to the fish but what's the point? You can artificially add ammonia to a fishless experimental tank and see how the bacteria go about converting it but thats getting too scientifica and technical and Im trying to have fun with this.

so why is everyone so invested in this whole live rock deal? it brings with it bad hitchhikers including crabs, glass anenomes, valonia, caluerpa, etc. etc. It costs a lot of money too. Using artifical decor, you can more selectively bring in to your display what you wish. Algaes grow just as well on glass, plastic, etc. as it does on live rock so all the fish that need microalgae in their diets will still be able to nibble on the tank walls and artifical decor just as they would on live rock.

Are you still arguing you need it for denitrification? Well I am showing you don't. Maybe all that denitrifcation we think it going on inside the rock is only actually happening in a biofilm right on the surface. Because something is making use of the nitrates generated.

Just so you guys have a little info, I have quite a few tanks and all of them except this tank has live rock and skimmers and all of them are running along great. I'm just trying something a little different with this tank.

 

[burning2nd]

herefishyfish: "wheres the pictures"

should have ended the convo... but I guess ill just ask

any pictures of of what we are speaking of... Im really lazy and here some crazyness with out pictures just burns my brain up.

 

[Scooterman]

Live rock contains varying pores throughout the rock itself, all the way to the depths of the core. It houses a wide variety of bacteria that is used for the processing detritus into something less toxic. You get bacteria from LR that you won't get otherwise, & not get the breakdown unless you contain this larger mass of varying creatures. Lr makes is easier to contain life in a closed system, it works so well that you can almost sustain everything we keep in our tanks with just the LR. The problem is over time if this is all we had then eventually even the processed waste will build up, so we add skimmers, lots of WC's & refuges to add to that of the LR. Not only all that you gain from it, yes you do get nasties that can get out of hand in a closed system merely because we can't duplicate an entire ocean in a small glass container. LR is natural looking also & recreating the reef with corals & fish, sand is another thing to add as to why have it.
Can you raise a tank with out LR & sand for that matter, the answer is yes, just step back 15 years or longer when people only used sea water & might of used a piece or two of LR & maybe a plenum ug or canister. We know now we can keep corals & fish in a sterile tank but with limitations, lr adds to part of the complete home system to stabilize it & allow for a higher amount of bio-load & more important higher chances of successful reef keeping in the first place.
The one thing that really bothers me about this thread is apparently the originator has spent the time to truly understand what LR is & how it functions, purposes & what is in it & what is involved with maintaining it successfully. People these days jump into this hobby & move at a fast pace, then think they discovered something substantially important but the real experienced people who have been around a long time, studies the learns the biology & chemistry of what is going on can tell you much more than you can imagine. I suggest you do some through research, read for people like Randy, boomer & the many others that understands & knows what is going on. Try for starters.
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-05/rhf/index.php

 

[csababubbles]

Burning 2nd, sure thing i'll get some pics posted. I have them on same memory card as the pics I took of my horny panda that I plan on posting up later today.

 

[csababubbles]

SCOOTERMAN, while I have been in this hobby for decades longer then others, I feel I have enough intelligence to experiment and then have an open discussion on this board to try and make sense of what I have observed. You seem to be dismissing me with your blanket statement that I should be doing more research but you should understand that I am well aware of the accepted practices and theories in this hobby. I am no way claiming I know everything but i think I am on to something significant here. You seem to be regurgitating everything that is "common knowledge" in this hobby. Well, that info I am proposing is wrong. Please take the time to read my responses in this thread. It seems to be flying in the face of what you are saying. But the proof seems to be right there. Is there not a sizable fish load in this tank without live rock and sand? Yes. Since there is a fish load that is being fed, ammonia will be produced right? Yes. Yet there is no ammonia, nitrite, or nitrate detectable in the aquarium, even if tested after the daily feeding. Something has to be going on that is causing the nitrates to be used up.

I also have another theory based on my experiments. Many people, including you, say that the live rock is good because once the surface bacteria convert the ammonia to nitrite and then nitrite to nitrate, the "bacteria deep in the pores" will be able to use this nitrate for energy and convert it to a nitrogen gas. And that the nitrate must be in close proximity to the oxygen deprived bacteria for them to be able to capture and use it. Well, here is what I think. The bacteria in the pores is not doing anything. The algaes and bacteria on the surface film are responsible for the denitrificiation. For example, one of my tanks runs a wet/dry filter along with 200 lbs of live rock in the display. Yet my nitrates are consistently tested under 5, despite a huge bioload and large feedings several times a day. But this is not supposed to happen! I am certainly not doing enough water changes (20% once a month on this tank) to have a major effect on nitrate reduction. Yet everyone claims that this system will result in high nitrates because the wet/dry creates them but then the nitrates are too far from the live rock for the bacteria to capture it. Well, if its too far for the live rock inner pore bacteria to capture it then something else must be using it, no? So there is denitrification in that tank that is not happening inside that rock, but somewhere else. So that's why I had the idea to setup a tank with fish but without live rock and sand to see if denitrification would still be occurring. And it appears to be!

 

[Scooterman]

The point I was making is the surface bacteria eats up the detritus, poops it out, then other bacteria eats that poop & then poop that out, it continues into a deep cycle, these bacteria have a criteria to live & are found in the depths of the Lr, where they only can live, my point is these bacteria do break down the traits farther then can be done externally. Also the hobby kits aren't scaled enough to detect exactly what levels your really at. All I'm saying is these internal bacteria are there & they do break things down even deeper, same thing with having a varying Sb & why the varying sizes are that important.
One last note, unless you test your tank 24/7 constantly, how can you say you never get any ammonia, nitrates or nitrites? What about organic phosphates, are you testing that also what happens to those waste by products of feedings & poops?
No doubt I'm agreeing you can do what you say but that part about the bacteria inside the LR I had to Disagree because of what I've learned & seen in test vrs your opinion, that is nothing else to regurgitate.

 

[csababubbles]

"One last note, unless you test your tank 24/7 constantly, how can you say you never get any ammonia, nitrates or nitrites? What about organic phosphates, are you testing that also what happens to those waste by products of feedings & poops?"

I do not test my tank 24 hrs a day but then again, neither do you with your live rock tank. How do YOU know YOUR tank is not getting the very same spikes? Why should there be a special testing procedure done on this tank versus your tank when both are consistently coming back at undetectable levels? Why is my undetectable level not as accurate as when you test your live rock tank? In regards to you question about what happens to the poop, well I siphon the detritus out every month when I do the water change. Same as my live rock tanks. As for phosphates I have not tested for it because I do not have any test kits. But I can tell you that there is a very minimal visible nuisance microalgae in the tank. The macro is growing quite well though.

 

[Scooterman]

Never said we had to test all of our tanks 24/7, never said I don't ever get spikes, same with the test kits, your arguing for the sake of it!

 

[csababubbles]

I was only replying to your post. Not arguing, I'm glad someone has taken a big enough interest in my thread to participate! But you did mention how do I know I am not getting spikes. Obviously I don't test all day so I don't know for sure, but if I am getting zero on the test kit straight across everytime I test since the original large cycle, that that should be good enough to support fish. I am curious, if you don't know your getting such spikes with your live rock tank, then why would you make a big deal out of it that I may be getting them in my tank? I am sure there are minimal spikes such as when the fish directly produce waste the water in proximity to the waste will have elevated levels of ammonia but with proper water circulation that ammonia should make its way to where the bacteria reside and quickly be converted. So I am sure every tank in the world has lots of nano-spikes in localized areas that can't be tested. But its how quickly that ammonia can be converted to less toxic chemicals. And since I am not showing any detectable levels when I test (sometimes randomly, sometime after feedings) then the ammonia must be converting quick enough to not harm the fish (I am assuming just as quick as with a live rock system as long as there is substantial flow through the tank).

 

[Scooterman]

That was my point, we all cycle & spike constantly, it never stops but does reach an equilibrium where it basically called cycled.
As mentioned already, your bio-load isn't large enough to be a problem to get waste converted to something less toxic. Also the surfaces as already mentioned is doing that. Again I was mainly referring to the statement that within the depths of the LR itself isn't doing anything & I say for research from a long list of experts that have studied this in depth, all point to what I'm saying & these bacteria is very beneficial in the breakdown processes & most likely although not reading the results, your not breaking down the processed waste as much as you would If you had lr in there.

 

[Herefishyfishy]

One more addition to the discussion. I suspect quality man made "live rock" would function just as well, assuming similar densities and mineral contents. I don't think that fresh-from-ocean coral aragonite limestone has been professed as the only way to go.

The greater the load, the greater the surface area needs OR: the more frequent the water changes. The live rock allows stabile conditions without tossing out as much water. Enough rock, skimmer, dosing, and equipment such as denitrators; one might not need to change water in a FOWLER. Each makes their own choice. If no reef rock, growing corals becomes a daunting task and growing SPS becomes a total crap shoot if not impossible.

The only real controversy is the title of the thread, and sensational headlines have been a part of journalism and blogs from the beginning.

Best with all.

 

[preons]

I think everyone gets all emotional about LR. I was staring at my tank watching all the crazy little creatures going in and out of all the cracks and nuisence algae in my tank. Then I watched my tang deciding which algae to eat. I saw my rass picking off invisible bugs over and over. I have something burrowing in my live rock that squirts out a large plume of sand poop a couple times a day. Its amazing. I see all my fish darting in and out of my mature coral colonies and I came to the conclusion. My fish look super super happy. Way Way happier than any other fish Ive seen in a bare or man made LR tank. Ive loved all my hichhikers. The bad ones just give me a new project now and then. I think the goal of many of us is to have the most diversity and most realistic display as possible. I could care less if LR did anything but create a realistic environment. I think the diversity that comes with LR is exactly why one tank can be very different and more healthy and stable biologicaly than another tank set up with the same equiptment but with out LR. If the Chemistry is helped by the LR its just a bonus for me. I think its totally cool that reefers see an awsome aqua scape and are totaly excited. Or you are setting up a new tank and that perfectly shaped LR comes in with lots of nooks and sponges and little die off, you just cant beat that feeling. LR is as important to me as all the other livestock. I think experimenting is cool so we can all understand whats going on better but I think your experiment has been done a lot however bringing it up here lets me find out just how important other reefers think LR is these days and we know opinions do change over time. Valuable discussion. Kudos for that.

 

[csababubbles]

preons, please read what i have wrote. most of the live rock we see is not a very good way at all to bring in diverse life to your tank. Do you realize how long most of that rock has been out of water? Or how large of an ammonia spike the life on the rock had to grow through on its way to your tank? Do you understand how much life all this kills? Starting a new tank there are many options that bring in all those critters you are enjoying in your tank now. Buying what we know today as live rock is an inefficient and expensive option.

And artificial decor also supports pods and algae just as well as live rock. All those pods needs is a place to hide and food. Algae needs just a place to anchor to, does not care if its live rock or plastic. You can build just as beautiful of a aquascape with live rock as with artificial rock, and its easier and less messy too. Why can't a reefer be excited over an artificial landscape as they would be over a live rock landscape?

 

[preons]

Read it all and just dont agree with all of your posts, some but not all. just my opinion, I love the Live Rock and we get some really fresh stuff here with little die off in seattle. Its definatley the best way to get biodiversity. Im still finding new stuff and my LR is ten years old now. And I dont think artificial can come even close. I think cultured Rocks made of the same chemical compounds put right in a live reef for maybe a year or more might, and I mean might, come close to what traditional LR contains but would still lack the porosity and some of the microfauna im sure. I dont know if the diversity has any great benifits, it definately has some bad problems but it is what it is. A chunk of mature reef and thats what most of us like. You can run a real succsesful tank maybe more successful with tank raised diversity but thats all you are going to get unless you take organisms out of the ocean. We are always pushing the limits on what we can keep alive and always getting new creatures that can live in our tanks. Bringing in new LR is helping new organisms adjust to our strange hobby. Im glad we do it. The more we can keep going the less that are going to go extinct here in the next 100 years. I think its likely our tanks are going to contain many species someday that do not exist in the wild anymore. We may be the last stable refuge for these organisms. I dont keep plastic corals or plastic fish and I dont have marbles for sand for a good reason. It just seems fake and yucky and if I had to live in there would want LR for sure.