Looks like ick, this sucks.
- Thread starter Gimpster
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liveforphysics
Banned
Thanks Ron, but seriously I dont do anything special. I toss them in, and I feed them my typical funky fish diet, which consists of formula 1 flake on lazy days (about half the time), and strawberry chunks, bits of orange, banana, earth worms, chunks from the bags of sponge I harvest from the tacoma water front, hamburger and hotdog chunks, or whatever the heck I have handy to toss in and see if anybody will try it. I even toss in bits of habanero peppers and things on occasion, but I would have to say that generally has no takers on eating it 
Fish also dont seem to like apples, but do love bananas (thanks for the tip on that PaulB).
I had some cichlids that would just go NUTS for mashed potatoes. I did a test with a buddy, where we dropped in 6 feeder goldfish on one side of the tank, and a generous spoonful of mashed potatoes on the other side. The goldfish lives were extended by at least 30 seconds until the mashed potatoes were eaten down to nothing more than a faint cloud in the water, at which point the goldfish were reduced to nothing more than bits of scales floating in the water...
Once will scuba diving in maui, I tore open this large bag of frozen corn I brought down with me, expecting to play with getting the fish to eat out of my hands. Much to my suprize, the bag was instantly ripped from my hands and into shreads so rapidly, that the sun was blocked out from the sheer quanity of fish swarming over my head and all around me. It was actaully kinda spooky to feel so many thousands of fish bumping into me at the same time... Fish on preserves are as bad as park bears
But seriously, if somebody wants to bring me an ich fish, I can even extract a couple of the white spots with something and take them to the biolab at school to get some digi pics under a microscope to confirm the fish actually does have ich before we get to watch it dissapear and turn back into a happy fishy.
Fish also dont seem to like apples, but do love bananas (thanks for the tip on that PaulB).I had some cichlids that would just go NUTS for mashed potatoes. I did a test with a buddy, where we dropped in 6 feeder goldfish on one side of the tank, and a generous spoonful of mashed potatoes on the other side. The goldfish lives were extended by at least 30 seconds until the mashed potatoes were eaten down to nothing more than a faint cloud in the water, at which point the goldfish were reduced to nothing more than bits of scales floating in the water...
Once will scuba diving in maui, I tore open this large bag of frozen corn I brought down with me, expecting to play with getting the fish to eat out of my hands. Much to my suprize, the bag was instantly ripped from my hands and into shreads so rapidly, that the sun was blocked out from the sheer quanity of fish swarming over my head and all around me. It was actaully kinda spooky to feel so many thousands of fish bumping into me at the same time... Fish on preserves are as bad as park bears
But seriously, if somebody wants to bring me an ich fish, I can even extract a couple of the white spots with something and take them to the biolab at school to get some digi pics under a microscope to confirm the fish actually does have ich before we get to watch it dissapear and turn back into a happy fishy.
Slickdonkey
Drink me
So the secret is revealed...... mashed potatoes!
steve-s
Well-known member
You are making claims that are unsubstantiated by any kind of scientific methodology or control. I am not suggesting you aren't telling the truth as you see it but what you are suggesting does not add up. The two more plausible conclusions that might be made here is either the diagnosis was incorrect (most likely) or something in the system itself that is quantifiable (least likely) is causing this affect. Simple diet and water quality will not remedy situations of this magnitude/type. Yes simple less severe problems can be alleviated in this fashion and I would be right there supporting you on that but this kind of information helps no one. People should ignore this kind of advice outright, it's no different than the claims made by manufacturers of reef safe medications in this regard. If it cannot be repeated successfully 100% of the time it's employed it should not be endorsed.
To simpley claim your system for whatever reason will cure a fish of an internal bacterial infection or parsites is a real long stretch. Some bordering on shear nonesense. I don't say these things to attack you but rather hope you and others see this kind of information for what it is.....be skeptical.
Cheers
Steve
Gimpster
Well-known member
Steve I think whats probaly happening is that his tank does not cure ick or any other problmes except one. By providing a more healthy low stress natural envirnment it likely allows the fish's immune system to strengthen and fight off what ever is infesting/infecting it. Nothing more, nothing less. This not the first time I have come across this concept or the only field to have seen it in.
We know that a healthy low stress envirnment is a primary driver in fighting off illness and building ap immunity. Its part of the reason hosipitals are doing away with the cold white look and introducing soft soothing colors and activities. Its also true that high stress and poor envirnment is a known risk factor in health problems.
I think what Liveforphysics may have in his system is nothing more then an ideal envirnment for fish health, low stress, quality, quantity and variaty of food. The fish get stronger, their immune system starts to fight back and builds a defence for the problem. The same processes happen to humanity as well.
But you are a man of sicence and there for can only believe what you can quantify. Thats fine. But some times you have to take things on faith. Not everything that happens in the world is repeatable and quanifiable. I have seen some amazing things that can not be explained by sicence and yet they are there. If you want to prove or disprove his claims then perhaps you should work with him to do so and not just discount his observations as conjecture.
Science still can not though carefull annalisys and research build a selfsustaining biosphere yet nature has. I have a starfish every considers as evil and a coral threat but it does not touch corals. It eats Coraline, film algea, diatoms, and canyo. As a result since I stoped trying to kill them as every one said I should do i now have tones of them, I don't ever have to scrape coraline off the glass for none grows on the glass or my powerheads, or overflow. I have no scientific data to back this up only observation, I have great coraline growth on the rocks, it spreads like crazy. It only grows on the rocks because there is always bare rock for it to grow on. It seems to perfer growning on the rock then the glass. Is there any scientific data to sugest this is true? i have no idea of its what I observe, and is not alot of scientific knowledge gained through observation and study? You know I think it is, the only difference is that the scientific data we consider to be facts are those observations that have been recorded and agreeded to be fact. It does not mean those that have not been are not also true, they just are not yet accepted to be so.
So i would argue that spreading this type of observation does help everyone contrary to what you believe, as it opens the door to new ways of thinking, to future experimentation and observation and in time perhaps new discovery and recorded fact. If we never embrace new ideas our knowlage will never advance, fear of the unknown will prevent the unknown from ever being understood. Where would this hobby be today if it was not for people defying current logic, we would still have Saltwater fish tanks with plastic rocks, crushed coral substrate and undergravel filters? The advances in reef keeping have been made because we have open our minds and eyes, and dared to look in to the unknown with out fear.
So i do not care if he has proof, I am still interested in what he has observed and what he did to arive at a system like he has. At the very lease its an interesting concept.
We know that a healthy low stress envirnment is a primary driver in fighting off illness and building ap immunity. Its part of the reason hosipitals are doing away with the cold white look and introducing soft soothing colors and activities. Its also true that high stress and poor envirnment is a known risk factor in health problems.
I think what Liveforphysics may have in his system is nothing more then an ideal envirnment for fish health, low stress, quality, quantity and variaty of food. The fish get stronger, their immune system starts to fight back and builds a defence for the problem. The same processes happen to humanity as well.
But you are a man of sicence and there for can only believe what you can quantify. Thats fine. But some times you have to take things on faith. Not everything that happens in the world is repeatable and quanifiable. I have seen some amazing things that can not be explained by sicence and yet they are there. If you want to prove or disprove his claims then perhaps you should work with him to do so and not just discount his observations as conjecture.
Science still can not though carefull annalisys and research build a selfsustaining biosphere yet nature has. I have a starfish every considers as evil and a coral threat but it does not touch corals. It eats Coraline, film algea, diatoms, and canyo. As a result since I stoped trying to kill them as every one said I should do i now have tones of them, I don't ever have to scrape coraline off the glass for none grows on the glass or my powerheads, or overflow. I have no scientific data to back this up only observation, I have great coraline growth on the rocks, it spreads like crazy. It only grows on the rocks because there is always bare rock for it to grow on. It seems to perfer growning on the rock then the glass. Is there any scientific data to sugest this is true? i have no idea of its what I observe, and is not alot of scientific knowledge gained through observation and study? You know I think it is, the only difference is that the scientific data we consider to be facts are those observations that have been recorded and agreeded to be fact. It does not mean those that have not been are not also true, they just are not yet accepted to be so.
So i would argue that spreading this type of observation does help everyone contrary to what you believe, as it opens the door to new ways of thinking, to future experimentation and observation and in time perhaps new discovery and recorded fact. If we never embrace new ideas our knowlage will never advance, fear of the unknown will prevent the unknown from ever being understood. Where would this hobby be today if it was not for people defying current logic, we would still have Saltwater fish tanks with plastic rocks, crushed coral substrate and undergravel filters? The advances in reef keeping have been made because we have open our minds and eyes, and dared to look in to the unknown with out fear.
So i do not care if he has proof, I am still interested in what he has observed and what he did to arive at a system like he has. At the very lease its an interesting concept.
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ooooohhh, fiction can be fun!!!!!!! if you understood the lifecycle of ich and that it doesn't just "dieoff", unless there are no fish present, you wouldn't be so dead set on believing that a good natural environment will "cure" ich.....i mean, there are hot dogs, hamburgers, peppers, ansd mashed potatoes in the tank!!!!! i don't see how in the world that could be called a healthy, low stress "natural" enviroment.(no offenense intended at all)
Gimpster
Well-known member
I am not saying it will cure ich, its still there in the tank for sure but the fish just might have an immune system strong enough to fight it off. As for the odd foods its all still protien, starch or fats. Just in a different form. All I am saying is don't rip people down for having a different opinion, its only though experimentation and observation of the results do we advance our knowlage.
as for the odd foods, fish don't have the same digestive systems that humans have...some of these foods are hard on our systems...how can that be healthy for a fish????...i am not ripping anyone for their opinions, i like the idea of an all natural tank,or as close to natural as it can get...i do believe a healthy, low stress enviroment is EXTREMELY helpful to the immune system of a fish, but it does not solve the parasite problem.....
steve-s
Well-known member
Gimpster, while I can appreciate your "loyalty" to Luke and what he might have to say, I can assure you it is nothing new. Aquired or less likely innate immunities are also well known and somewhat well studied. Both are and will remain to be possibilities. Luke has not offered anything new or worthy of further study. It has already been done. The fact still remains these two conditions are and will remain, hit and miss at best.
Since I am not here to discuss philosophy, yes science is exactly what needs to be the driving force behind these exchanges. I am certainly not about to discuss that topic beyond those merits, there's simpley no benifit. Whether you allow yourself see the point I trying to make is up you. Please research the two terms I have given you either at the library or via the internet albeit limited. The information is freely available.
Cheers
Steve
Since I am not here to discuss philosophy, yes science is exactly what needs to be the driving force behind these exchanges. I am certainly not about to discuss that topic beyond those merits, there's simpley no benifit. Whether you allow yourself see the point I trying to make is up you. Please research the two terms I have given you either at the library or via the internet albeit limited. The information is freely available.
Certain fruits and raw meats can sometimes be utilized as alternate food sources but they are definately not all the same when it comes to proteins and fats. More often than not you will be shortening their lifespan or worse.You really should research your conclusions before you make them. Not all foods can be digested equally. Just because an animal ingests a food type does not m,ean it will gain nutrition from it.Gimpster said:
Cheers
Steve
I have something I would like to add to the ich controversy but I really don't want people to do what I do. I have to agree with Liveforphysics (almost)
My reef exhibited the same responce to ich for the last 25 years or so. I could put all the infected fish in there with no problem (again, don't do this, my tank is an experiment) I know what ich looks like as I have been doing this for over fifty years and I had salt tanks before they were sold.
I also believe it is the stress factor. I don't think the fish are immune, I am not sure if you can become immune to a paracite (it's like being immune from bullets) If you do any diving you will see that the fish in the sea are much healthier than any fish in a tank. If your fish are not laying eggs every month like they do normally, they are not as healthy as you think they are. Fish in a tank are always under extreme stress especially so called "ich magnet" tangs. These fish are schooling fish and never live alone, hence the stress. I can prove that fish get ich only under stress. As I said my fish have not been infected with ich in 25 years and thats 25 years of no quarantining (please quarintine all your fish) and adding NSW, seaweed, local snails, worms, flounders horseshoe crabs etc. But, and this is a big but, they now have ich. Why do they have ich? Because last week when it was 7 degrees my power and heat went off for a day and a half which stressed the fish. The next day, guess what? ich. They also get ich if they are about to die from old age or an accident like getting stuck in a powerhead.
I do believe that healthy, stress free fish do not get ich.
I also believe that it is next to impossable to get fish into that state of health in a tank. Again, it is very important to quarintine your fish, it is easier to keep a tank if ich is not in there I am just stating that if we can keep our fish relitively free from stress they will be better able to cope with not just ich but every other disease. Fish should be in tanks large enough for them and fed a variety of fresh foods, not just flakes or some other commercially prepared food. I also feed my fish bananas, it was stated that this may not be nutritionally advantageous, I agree also but my moorish Idol is now four years old, very few of them live to that age as young as it is. Bananas mixed with other things are just an experiment for now.
One more thing, as I am not the God of ich, for the first 10 years or so my entire tank was an ich magnet and I had to keep copper in there continousely as most of us did in the seventees, we did not have reefs just FO tanks and since there were very few books and no internet we had to learn about this stuff on our own.
Anyway enough rambling, don't forget I am not endorsing what I do, I am an experimenter and if I lose my fish, so be it. Most of them died of old age.
Have a great day and good luck.
Paul
My reef exhibited the same responce to ich for the last 25 years or so. I could put all the infected fish in there with no problem (again, don't do this, my tank is an experiment) I know what ich looks like as I have been doing this for over fifty years and I had salt tanks before they were sold.
I also believe it is the stress factor. I don't think the fish are immune, I am not sure if you can become immune to a paracite (it's like being immune from bullets) If you do any diving you will see that the fish in the sea are much healthier than any fish in a tank. If your fish are not laying eggs every month like they do normally, they are not as healthy as you think they are. Fish in a tank are always under extreme stress especially so called "ich magnet" tangs. These fish are schooling fish and never live alone, hence the stress. I can prove that fish get ich only under stress. As I said my fish have not been infected with ich in 25 years and thats 25 years of no quarantining (please quarintine all your fish) and adding NSW, seaweed, local snails, worms, flounders horseshoe crabs etc. But, and this is a big but, they now have ich. Why do they have ich? Because last week when it was 7 degrees my power and heat went off for a day and a half which stressed the fish. The next day, guess what? ich. They also get ich if they are about to die from old age or an accident like getting stuck in a powerhead.
I do believe that healthy, stress free fish do not get ich.
I also believe that it is next to impossable to get fish into that state of health in a tank. Again, it is very important to quarintine your fish, it is easier to keep a tank if ich is not in there I am just stating that if we can keep our fish relitively free from stress they will be better able to cope with not just ich but every other disease. Fish should be in tanks large enough for them and fed a variety of fresh foods, not just flakes or some other commercially prepared food. I also feed my fish bananas, it was stated that this may not be nutritionally advantageous, I agree also but my moorish Idol is now four years old, very few of them live to that age as young as it is. Bananas mixed with other things are just an experiment for now.
One more thing, as I am not the God of ich, for the first 10 years or so my entire tank was an ich magnet and I had to keep copper in there continousely as most of us did in the seventees, we did not have reefs just FO tanks and since there were very few books and no internet we had to learn about this stuff on our own.
Anyway enough rambling, don't forget I am not endorsing what I do, I am an experimenter and if I lose my fish, so be it. Most of them died of old age.
Have a great day and good luck.
Paul
