Losing faith in Salifert.

[Gordonious]

I have a Salifert test kit that is now giving me very different readings every couple of minutes on the same source. After the finding the powder used in this kit to look a little different then the powder in my MG kit I wondered if it had absorbed a little bit a moister and was curious if the results I was getting would be accurate. I pulled a Calcium Ref. 438 out of my Sea Chem test kit and tested it three times with the Salifert kit. Readings told me it was 400, 480, and 500+. Not only that but after each test kit I emptied the remaining contents of the syringe into the test vials and now have blue, purple, and pink in the test vials. Perhaps this reference wasn’t designed to be used with Salifert, but the inconsistency is the scary part.

The other sad part is that Salifert is unreachable for comment. I tried to find their contact info 6 months ago and there website looks just as crappy as it does now with no contact info at all. Didn’t they used to be a sponsor on one of the forums? They don’t seem to be a sponsor anywhere now? (Did a search on the forums seems, there has been no customer service for more then two years… wow.)

Am I alone in this? I’m debating ordering another Salifert test kit or switching brands. I need to do something fast though because every box of the cheap salt I use is different.

 

[krisfal]

If you decide on a different brand I have been switching over to Elos. I do not know alot about the accuracy of the test, only what I read here (and I have not heard anything bad) but the quality of the parts seems better e.g. glass vials (that stay clear instead of getting cloudy like salifert's plastic), higher quality syringes, bottles with complete labels, etc.

 

[DonW]

All I can say is stuff happens. You said in the other thead that the regents got hard. It may be that the kit was old or just plain got moisture in it. Elos has their fair share of defective kits as well. Lamotte seems to be better than both but is hard to detect the color change for some people. Hobby kits like salifert and elos are inexpensive so I would expect to get a bad one every now and again.

Don

 

[Gordonious]

So you really need to purchase about 4-5 of each type of kit or expect that at some point you will be adding too much supplements? If you expect to get a bad one every now and again how do you compensate for it? Do the Elios and the Lamotte both have reliable references included to check for the expected "bad ones"?

I'm now leaning away from the Lamotte since you say it may be hard for some people to detect the color changes, this is exactly why I really do not like these kits. When I first started my marine tank I purchased 6 brands of pH test kits and just about every one had something different to say. I now have two pin point pH probes and calibrate them often. Problem is the rest of the probes are very expensive and by the time you have 6-7 probes in you're tank calibrating them as often as they should be would be a pain.

Jon

 

[Gordonious]

DonW are you still in favor of Saliferts? I realize they have had some bad batches, but if the majority of people still trust them and I'm likely to get bad results where ever I go I may stick with them. The LFS I work at also carries Salifert so I get a discount, I wouldn't be sure which wholesaler to contact to get the store to carry anything else and the shop owner would not be able to do a bulk order direct from any manufacturer. If I was told I was mostly likely going to have trouble with the brand and by using them I was asking for trouble I would stay away.

Side note, you keep a Vivarium? I’ve always wanted to do one of those.

 

[DonW]

If your testing on a regular basis it should be obvious when you get a bad test kit. 10 or 15 ppm difference between two kit isnt going to make any real difference. Close and stable is really all were looking for. As far as ph goes the same thing applies. As long as your not doing something to drasticly affect ph then close is good enough. Test some fresh mix with IO salt at 35ppt the ca should be 340 to 350, anywhere close to that and the kit is close enough to provide you with the number for stability.

Don

 

[DonW]

DonW are you still in favor of Saliferts? I realize they have had some bad batches, but if the majority of people still trust them and I'm likely to get bad results where ever I go I may stick with them. The LFS I work at also carries Salifert so I get a discount, I wouldn't be sure which wholesaler to contact to get the store to carry anything else and the shop owner would not be able to do a bulk order direct from any manufacturer. If I was told I was mostly likely going to have trouble with the brand and by using them I was asking for trouble I would stay away.

Side note, you keep a Vivarium? I’ve always wanted to do one of those.

I would stick with salifert or elos. My sig line is just the definition of "aquarium".

Don

 

[Gordonious]

My first test kit from Seachem only lasted about 10 tests and I stopped using it a long time ago, this one I have been using for a month, I have made a lot of adjustments on my tank based on the Salifert. So I realize you will learn your tanks and it will be obvious when I test kit is way off, but what do you recommend for someone that has never purchased a kit in the past?

The problem with me learning the tanks as well is I haven't had time to wait and be sure the Ca was dead on and I needed to do water changes. The cheap salt I have used changes dramaticly from box to box on how much Ca is in the salt, so my tanks have been fluctuating. So you're advice to me would be to buy 3 brands of each test kit for Ca, Mg, and Alk? Nine $20+ test kits? This probe is looking better and better if I'm already spending upwards of $180.

I think I am going to be purchasing some Elos kits though.

 

[DonW]

cheap salt I have used changes dramaticly from box to box on how much Ca is in the salt, so my tanks have been fluctuating.

I guess if your looking for stability then water would be the first place to start and salt would be the second. Not sure why you would use such a salt if its so hit and miss.

Don

 

[Gordonious]

I have a lot of tanks and go through about 30-35lbs a week. For me the box salt I am using has been used by a lot of local reefers for years and we are just seeing problems the last couple of months.(have been meaning to contact the manufacture, but I graduated this spring and have yet to find a "real job", that’s my priority) This salt is half the price of IO salt and suppose to be "lab grade" and full of everything a reef tank would need according to the package.

Jon

 

[jezzeaepi]

After my third bad salifert test kit I said never again(3 out of my last 5 purchased were bad..). I have yet to have a bad elos kit and have probably purchased about a dozen of them.

 

[DonW]

I have a lot of tanks and go through about 30-35lbs a week. For me the box salt I am using has been used by a lot of local reefers for years and we are just seeing problems the last couple of months.(have been meaning to contact the manufacture, but I graduated this spring and have yet to find a "real job", that’s my priority) This salt is half the price of IO salt and suppose to be "lab grade" and full of everything a reef tank would need according to the package.

Jon

What salt would that be?

Don

 

[Gordonious]

Crystal Sea® Marinemix

With all the debates and varied opinions on salts it seems most of what I have heard from reliable salts is that most salts are the same, all vary, and some are a little bit better, but at twice the cost. Figured as long as I check Ca, Mg, and Alk and make adjustments it should would work.

 

[jezzeaepi]

IMHO, Instant Ocean is in a league of its own. Sure, it has to be buffered for Ca and Mag, and as DonW has shown nitrates and phosphates may fluctuate, but they have been doing it for 40 years with consistancy. That I can put a little faith in. I still always test though before I put it in my tank.

 

[DonW]

Crystal Sea® Marinemix

With all the debates and varied opinions on salts it seems most of what I have heard from reliable salts is that most salts are the same, all vary, and some are a little bit better, but at twice the cost. Figured as long as I check Ca, Mg, and Alk and make adjustments it should would work.

CSM is close to the same price as IO.


Don

 

[Gordonious]

Suppose that depends on your LFS and how much they jack up the prices. Crystal Sea is dirt cheap around here, perhaps because we are less then an hour from Baltimore and perhaps because some LFS around here purchase it by the truck load. May be different in different locations. I have a lot of smaller systems and currently it is a lot cheaper to do water changes then buy and run a ton of skimmers, so I do a lot of water changes.

Funny jesseaepi mentions 40 years... that is exactly how long Marine Enterprises has been around. Just look at there main page.

 

[Boomer]

Just a note

Perhaps this reference wasn’t designed to be used with Salifert, but the inconsistency is the scary part.

The SeaChem ref does not work right with any other test kits only the SeaChem and that is what is scary. As Don pointed out you can almost use IO as a guide for Ca++, even Mg++ and ALk.

 

[jezzeaepi]

Sorry, let me rephrase that then. IO has been the most widely use and trsuted salt for the last 40 years. IO isnt incosistant batch to batch, like the brand you use is by your own admission. Just because someone has been doing something for 39 years doesnt mean they been doing it well the whole time. IO has a proven track record. I dont have 40 years worth of studies infront of me, but there is a reason why the home aquarist has gravitated towards one product(IO) and not another.
Their marketing scheme on their website makes me not like their product. When you click on the "whats in your water link"(http://www.meisalt.com/newsinfo/index.html) all they do is try to make you fear the other products on the market and convince you of a gigantic conspiracy by the salt makers to skew all studies in their favor... They dont offer a single link to any third party scientific study of their product to prove any of their accusations. They just tell you to go to google and look up various terms that are bound to produce tons of results, but none that have anything to do with specificaly salt manufacturers.

 

[Gordonious]

"That other forum", is full of threads about IO being way off while they were changing some equipment or something like that. You say there is a reason why home aquarist have gravitated towards one product, well if you look at what the stores sell most of them are selling IO. Most stores also sell SeaClone and a google search tells the story with the first hit, "waste of money". What is most popular in this hobby really means nothing as there are many more new and inexperienced people in the hobby then there are people who know what they are doing.

Salt brand usage is a heavily debated topic on the hobby and I would rather not go to far off topic into that.

Boomer are you suggesting that the best way to check a test kit is to test the Ca in IO salt? If the brand is stable and regular IO is just low in Ca when not use the IO brand of "Reef crystals"?

Looking at that PinPoint Ca probe made me wonder if the calibration fluid for it may help double check what I am getting with the reagent kits... However 100 and 1000ppm may be above and below the scale of where many of these kits were designed to be accurate. Since the SeaChem reference only works with SeaChem is there another reference I could buy that would work for most kits or is it on a case by case bases?

I've got a little bit of OCD running through me and I would really just like to have a bottle that has a specific concentration of CA in it(as well as MG and ALK) that I can measure with the test kits I purchase to see if they are off and if so by how much.

Just trying to get to the route of the matter and get answers. Boomer you seem to know this stuff well and I trust your opinion on the matter. I appriciate everyones posts and I am listening to all of them.

Jon

 

[DonW]

Boomer are you suggesting that the best way to check a test kit is to test the Ca in IO salt? If the brand is stable and regular IO is just low in Ca when not use the IO brand of "Reef crystals"?

Looking at that PinPoint Ca probe made me wonder if the calibration fluid for it may help double check what I am getting with the reagent kits... However 100 and 1000ppm may be above and below the scale of where many of these kits were designed to be accurate. Since the SeaChem reference only works with SeaChem is there another reference I could buy that would work for most kits or is it on a case by case bases?

I've got a little bit of OCD running through me and I would really just like to have a bottle that has a specific concentration of CA in it(as well as MG and ALK) that I can measure with the test kits I purchase to see if they are off and if so by how much.



Jon

IO is very consistant and can be used as a general guide not 100% accurate but will be close enough. RC is a little off as of late so I wouldnt use it as a guide right at this point in time.

Then there is always a lab. I use spectra in tacoma wa or you can give awt a shot.

If you sent in a sample to either spectra or awt and kept some you will have something to go on. This assumes you never let it evap and there is no precip over time.

Don