LR Falling Apart

[NaH2O]

are you saying that if you have a disease or other "bad" condition in your tank you would not add anything that would compromise your good bacteria?

That's right. I wouldn't want to compromise any good bacteria.

please go on the web and check out "pro-biotics" then perhaps you will be better equiped to comment.

I am familiar with probiotics, however, I was having a hard time figuring out what kind of probiotic you could be referring to. Probiotics to me are something that helps the growth of flora in the intestines. Give me an example, please.

and there is a difference between the words dissolving and erroding, of cource erroding is natural and expected, but dissolving that can be "seen" would not be natural. sugar dissolves in water, but it's structure errodes when damp. your last post reads "not really dissolving", that is not what you said the first time, had you said erroding I would not have stated "serious" condition, perhaps when a person offers help we should monitor our proposed help so as not to cloud the issue thereby really helping the thread starter.

First of all, the comment I quoted had the word dissolve in quotation marks. If it was truely dissolving, then no need for quotes....at least that is how I interpreted it. I am aware that there is a difference between dissolving and erroding.......there is just misinterpreting as to what is said. Perhaps if I post you a picture of one of the shells you can tell me if its the serious condition you are referring to.

Is it so far fetched to think that sponge die-off from uncured rock would cause it to fall apart in places?

Also

Increase your alk to about 14 and your ph to 8.4 keep your ca at about 400-420.

Balanced calcium for an alkalinity of 14 dKH is about 460ppm

 

[Maxx]

NaH2O, it appears you are not comprehending the posts

Thats rather rude way to start a conversation....

please go on the web and check out "pro-biotics" then perhaps you will be better equiped to comment.

Here's a quote from www.probiotics.com :

Probiotics are, "Organisms or substances which help to improve the environment of the intestinal tract.”

Probiotics help to restore balanced numbers of known beneficial bacteria thus creating a more healthy environment in the intestinal tract. Due to various factors, the delicate balance in the intestinal tract can become upset. Probiotics are organisms or substances which help to improve the balance of microorganisms in the intestinal tract.

Could you please explain to me how these products will prevent live rock from falling apart? Could you please explain to me how these products could prevent dissolving/erroding rocks, coral skeletons and shells? Could you please explain to me how reading from this site, (or any of the other many probiotics related sites I found on Google) will help me understand whats going on in someones tank and make me "better equipped to comment"???

perhaps when a person offers help we should monitor our proposed help so as not to cloud the issue thereby really helping the thread starter.

Hmmmm..... Pot, this is Kettle. You're black, over.
And there goes that manners thing again.


Rugie,
You seem to be fairly intelligent, and I have absolutely no doubt that you can contribute in a number of ways to the board and really help a number of people out....but do ya think you could be less abrasive while doing it?

Thanks,

Nick

 

[rugie]

rock falling apart

Maxx, I do not see abrasiveness on my part, nor do I mean to be abrasive, and your evalueation of my intellegence level is irrevelent as countless numbers of great reefers with low to average intellengence who have years of hands on experience have contributed greatly to this hobby. "as stated" probiotics help restore balanced numbers of known beneficial bacteria thus creating a more
healthy invironment. period. regardless if it is in intestines, the ocean, a creek, an aquarium.or cheese. adding beneficial bacteria to an aquarium such as those very readly available in the trade "is creating a pro-biotic effect, not an anti-biotic, but a pro-biotic effect. I stated that a pro-biotic may be needed to counteract the enzyme effect mentioned by another contributer to this thread. any further comments by me in answer to your "explain to me demands" would be redundant. it appears you just want to argue.

 

[rugie]

rock falling apart

NaH2O, when beneficial bacteria are compromised they can and are replaced the compromise workes both ways, if a pro-biotic approach is used it can and will compromise the existance of "bad" bacteria. it is not logical to assume that an outbreak of disease or other "problem" contributed to bacteria would be left unchecked due to not wanting to compromise "good" bacteria, if this were the case the amount of reefers would be down to about 30% of what now exists. when you had a hard time figuring out what kind of pro-biotics I was refering to indicates you indeed are not familiar with the subject.I do not know what I missed in school but putting a word in quotation marks does not change it's meaning but only puts emphasis on that word it does not mean it could be but maybe not. I made no comment about sponge dieoff, that person is entitled to their evaluationand it was only a suggestion.the increase your alk to 14 is in reference to the high ca level as the two are closer to balance then. thereby reducing the threat of precip and shock to the tank critters. 460 ca level is not all that bad as long as the buffer is in balance with it.I believe our efforts would be more productive if we directed our comments to the subject at hand. bickering is non productive and undermines our credibility. if you are quoting me here, I did not make any statement anywhere concerning boring sponges. "as for me" end of conversation.

 

[Maxx]

rugie,

I do not see abrasiveness on my part, nor do I mean to be abrasive

NaH2O, it appears you are not comprehending the posts

go on the web and check out "pro-biotics" then perhaps you will be better equiped to comment. and there is a difference between the words dissolving and erroding,

perhaps when a person offers help we should monitor our proposed help so as not to cloud the issue thereby really helping the thread starter.

These arent abrasive to you?

any further comments by me in answer to your "explain to me demands" would be redundant.

Please go back and re-read what I posted....

Could you please explain to me how these products will prevent live rock from falling apart? Could you please explain to me how these products could prevent dissolving/erroding rocks, coral skeletons and shells? Could you please explain to me how reading from this site, (or any of the other many probiotics related sites I found on Google) will help me understand whats going on in someones tank and make me "better equipped to comment"???

I didnt "demand" anything. I asked for clarification on your previous posts.

"as stated" probiotics help restore balanced numbers of known beneficial bacteria thus creating a more
healthy invironment. period. regardless if it is in intestines, the ocean, a creek, an aquarium.or cheese. adding beneficial bacteria to an aquarium such as those very readly available in the trade "is creating a pro-biotic effect, not an anti-biotic, but a pro-biotic effect. I stated that a pro-biotic may be needed to counteract the enzyme effect mentioned by another contributer to this thread.

I'm not arguing anything. I'm asking for clarification to my questions.
The beneficial bacteria in the intestine are different than those in the reef tank, its different environment. What are these bacteria (specifically) that are readily available in the trade? Are you referring to a specific product by a specific vendor? I'm honestly curious here and asking for clarification on your position. Can you point me to some studies that support your claims?
What I'm trying to figure out is what exactly are you referring to?

Nick

 

[rugie]

maxx well I will try again. I am not sure you are trying to figure out anything, but here goes. go to google search, type in---probiotics in reef aquaria. most all the reef people are there, mark weiss is there .reed mariculture, eric bornman, sanjo, etc

 

[Maxx]

I'm seeing alot of hits for marc Weiss products, and one article by Eric Borneman...
Were you primarily thinking of the Marc Weiss stuff?

Nick

 

[mojoreef]

OK boys and girls lets keep this thread on track and try to be a little friendlier in our approach to it.

From my experence the main reason LR comes apart is because of rock boring sponge. Alot of the LR these days is being harvested from deeper and deeper waters and thus the deeper you go the more spong mass you will get. In some cases the sponge will survive and the rock will remain intack, in other cases the sponge dies but the rok also remains intack, in others the sponge melts off and dies and thus removes the bonds between them and the rock has chunks fall off or crumbles. Either way its not a big deal, unless the LR is saturated with sponge, that might result in lossing the LR.
On the melting or dissolving of shells this is also a pretty normal process in the wild and in our tanks. When shell bearing critters make thier shell (unlike corals) they incorporate alot of P (mucus). Another reason not to use CC in a calcium reactor. Anyway this P is a prised object in a tank to any form of bacteria as it is a primary food source to them.

Rugie if you have the energy, could you start a new thread on this pro biotic theory and what the concept is??? you got my interest up?


Mike

 

[Krish]

Idgy...Update us. Are the rocks still crumbling? I hope you've gotten things sorted out in your tank and the only thing falling off of your rocks now is detritus. This thread has got me lost...Too complicated. I think Mike is right about starting up a new thread for the advanced "talk" of pro-biotic theory. I have no idea what that is(LOL) I'll have to check that out. In any event, whatever the solution is (if there is one) I hope your rock doesn't continue to crumble Idgy...

BTW, I've been mixed up in some crazy threads here in the past, and I just wanted to say that I hope we can all get along here. RF is a great and friendly place and I hate to see people not get along for whatever reason.