Marine Ich and the 11 month "worn out" theory

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the ich parasite is everywhere on the fish...even the eyes. The gills are the most delicate tissue with best blood supply and hence easiest and most desirable place for parasiites to attach. You must understand that gas exchange in the the gills happen on a membrane that is a single cell thick. any scarr tissue is a non-working surface of the gills. the fish would simpley cease to exist under the theory you propose. and then you still have to tell us how the parasite is not attaching to the rest of the fish too. is it the same scar tissue theory?

I have already stated on this thread that I will lend some credence to a theory of it is possible to feed your fish a diet which may in turn make the fish undesirable to the ich paratiste ( garlic is a common one) and on that same note may explain how a fish may be able to develop its own immunity via unpleasant or toxic compounds. "also the 11 month ich wears out" studies were done a long time ago!!! be nice to see some more recent data.... and less magic potions!

While I disagree that some scar tissue kills the fish (evolution doesn't tend to allow an animal to exist long term with such as unbelievabley fatal flaw), I TOTALLY agree that my musings are in no way scientific and more than likely just wrong. I'm also not advocating that the scar tissue presents a cure, just noting is as a possible cause for the temporary immunity, and making an assumption that ich thrives in the gills and merely survives given other attachment points. Eventually that scar tissue would lead to a weakened fish that couldn't do much of anything to naturally fight off the parasite, which is when the temporary immunity wears off. Its not scientific, and may or may not have a basis in reality.. I'm not really arguing for it.
I do wonder though why no one has really explored the idea that some fish develop a temporary immunity to something they cannot develop an immunity too. I had hoped someone might chime in with their own theory as far as that was concerned. Ich isn't nearly as mysterious as we seem to make it. Its a parasite, plain and simple. You can't develop an immunity to a parasite. You may be able to defer its affects, or make the host less desirable (as I also agree garlic has some possibility of doing)... but from what I understand, there is no "good" reason proffered for the "temporary immunity effect" Because I'd like to understand, or at least remove my mis-understanding, I posted my ramblings "out loud" I defended the idea in the sense that I'd like to see the subject examined, not as a way to "prove I'm right"
In my opinion, the only way we'll ever find a reef safe cure is to work with the biology of the fish. Most inverts share similar tolerances. Desirable inverts are going to die in the same "range" as non desirable ones, and therefore broadcast type treatments that work in the water column have little to no chance of being successful at limiting only the non desirable. This isn't always the case, there may be something out there fatal only to MI, but with the amount of research that has been done (commercially) in the area, it seems less than likely. The hole (as I see it) in commercial research is that they will always been "held back" by the fact that whatever they choose to introduce to kill the parasite has to be metabolized in such a way as to not be harmful when that fish hits a dinner plate. The imposition of that limit doesn't apply to hobbyists, but hobbyists don't get funded research grants..

Chloroloquine phosphate has shown some success as a food additive. No great success but some. The lack of success could be because actually getting a fish to eat it has been a challenge, or it could be that you can't reach proper "kill" levels without using it in broadcast form. Its just my opinion, but it seems logical to me that something that works with the fish's biology is one of the few things left that has a possibility of being reef safe, and even at that, the delivery system is going to be sketchy.
I don't claim to have answers, but I enjoy the thought process (regardless of how wrong my thought process may be, and I enjoy the feedback on it, when it actually has teeth). I prophylactically treat all my fish as I was bitten by "normal" QT processes, and had to tear a tank down and fallow it. Its a really crappy thing to do to the fish, but it "feels" like a better option for ensuring long term health, and I hope that this process means that I shouldn't need to search for a reef safe cure... but that's all I can do, turn the odds in my favor and hope. I can't prove I don't have ich in my tanks, I can turn the odds in my favor.
I'm not one of those ich folks that is going to jump up and down and scream at someone trying to use husbandry and alternatives to try to cure it either, as long as it is done with an understanding of what we currently "accept" as our knowledge level. The subject doesn't need to be as contentious as it is. We don't need to be so polarized. It results in a scenario where alternatives are not explored or understood, and it stagnates the knowledge pool. There are risks involved with all the scenarios, some greater than others, but summarily rejecting the idea that someone makes a choice you don't agree with is asinine. Science is not just performed in a lab, and while results outside of a lab are harder to quantify and understand, they are no less results. This isn't to say that I think everyone should be experimenting with the lives of their fish. Its to note that if someone chooses a method and understands the consequences of their actions, they need not be lambasted for doing so.
I apologize for writing a "novel" here, but I enjoy a reasoned discussion, and thought making my thoughts clear (regardless of their validity, or the reason-ability if that a word) might help to give context to what I'm typing. It might be all "garbage", I'm not offering it as anything other than MY thoughts.
 
I dont buy the garlic theory...Steven Pro did a study in which they found no scientific evidence to prove that garlic increases a fish immunity or for that matter kill a parasite..
There have been studies that noted some resistance to the parasite when garlic was fed. There are also studies though that note liver damage to the fish with long term use of garlic. I don't know whether I subscribe to theory that garlic helps or not, or the theories noting liver damage, but given no "hard evidence" I think we need to be cautious, especially given a lot of times the response to trying it is "it can't hurt"
 
Stacey,

Show me a study on where garlic produce resistance against Ich.


I still think garlic is just all marketing hype and until there is solid scientific evidence that shows the contrary, I would be hesistant to recommend garlic as a panacea against any pathogen.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/sp/index.php

http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/45723-lees-bio-k-leebca.html

I no longer have access to the journals in which I researched but the link has a few references... http://www.reefs.org/library/article/h_cortes-jorge.html (that was a quick search for allicin or Alliaceae in reference to marine ich.) I lost academic access to the journals when I graduated.
Again, not noting that I think it works, just noting that there is some scientific research/basis to the theory.
 
Stacey,
interesting...good reading, but still cautious about using it to treat parasites...it boils down to what works for someone and more importantly what is comfortable for them..

Lee Birch had an article in his forum called Garlic: Fools Gold or not....but I cant find it...this sorta sums up my thoughts on the subject. :D

Good banter, enjoyed the conversation.
 
Also, since I provided the links for garlic possibly being "good", these are the journals noting liver and heart damage from garlic that I have logged. Some may be publicly accessible, I didn't check, just grabbed the references. These were given to me by someone actually doing live research on the subject, and their study confirmed the results in clown fish... but they were only able to share a summary of the results due to restrictions applied by the folks that funded the study. While the latter part may suspect given I got them from someone "on the internet", the studies speak pretty clearly about the results in fish/marine fish. (note, none of them speak specifically to reef fish, of course, the "good" garlic ones don't really either)

AH, Sargent JR, Thompson KD 1993
Terrestrial and fish oils affect phospholipid fatty acid composition, development of cardiac lesions, phospholipase activity and eicosanoid production in Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar).
Prostaglandins Leukot Essent Fatty Acids. 49(3):665-73

AH, Park MT, Sargent JR.1991.
High dietary linoleic acid affects the fatty acid compositions of individual phospholipids from tissues of Atlantic salmon (Salmo salar): association with stress susceptibility and cardiac lesion.
J Nutr. 121(8):1163-72

J. Gordon Bell2, John McEvoy3, Douglas R. Tocher, Fiona McGhee, Patrick J. Campbell* and John R. Sargent 2004
Replacement of Fish Oil with Rapeseed Oil in Diets of Atlantic Salmon (Salmo salar) Affects Tissue Lipid Compositions and Hepatocyte Fatty Acid Metabolism
The American Society for Nutritional Sciences

J.G. Bell1, D.R. Tocher1, B.M. Farndale1, A.H. McVicar2 and J.R. Sargent1 1999
Effects of essential fatty acid-deficient diets on growth, mortality, tissue histopathology and fatty acid compositions in juvenile turbot (Scophthalmus maximus)
Journal Fish Physiology and Biochemistry 1573-5168 Volume 20, Number 3 p263-277

SL Seierstad, TT Poppe, EO Koppang, A Svindland, G 2005
Influence of dietary lipid composition on cardiac pathology in farmed Atlantic salmon, Salmo salar L
Journal of Fish Diseases.
 
Stacey,

Show me a study on where garlic produce resistance against Ich.


I still think garlic is just all marketing hype and until there is solid scientific evidence that shows the contrary, I would be hesistant to recommend garlic as a panacea against any pathogen.

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/sp/index.php

http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/45723-lees-bio-k-leebca.html


a quote taken from the reefkeeping link you provided.

"The interesting revelation that came from this study is that it revealed a statistically significant stronger immune response in the fish given only garlic versus the fish given antibiotics, antibiotics and garlic, or the untreated control group.

just sayin.
 
a quote taken from the reefkeeping link you provided.

"The interesting revelation that came from this study is that it revealed a statistically significant stronger immune response in the fish given only garlic versus the fish given antibiotics, antibiotics and garlic, or the untreated control group.

just sayin.
.
which would be much more significant if ich were bacterial. Its a parasite.
 
Kevin

If u read further down the paragraph u find this:

The bad news is that this paper dealt with a bacterial infection. There is no relationship between garlic's effect on bacterial infections and parasitic infestations.*
 
too many people have had luck treating ich with methods other than hypo or copper ( keep in mind I have done my share of hypo and have never relied on magic potions) and too many people have had success with garlic specifically for it to simply be disregarded due to lack of a proven scientific study that you or me can find on the internet.

think garlic breath in humans and then ask yourself is it not interesting to think that it may have a similar affect in fish and make the fish distastfull to the ick? I have heard people that have consumed large amounts of garlic have warded off things like wood tics and leeches.

again, just saying its food for thought....and MANY experienced hobbiests will addmitt to using it in private if not in public form.
 
Hmmm, will garlic breath help prevent head lice, crabs, protozoan infection or even keep mosquitos away? Besides some anecdotal gingivitis study, garlic appears only good for keeping vampires away. Turning off the TV will accomplish the same fantasy control.
 
Hmmm, will garlic breath help prevent head lice, crabs, protozoan infection or even keep mosquitos away? Besides some anecdotal gingivitis study, garlic appears only good for keeping vampires away. Turning off the TV will accomplish the same fantasy control.

avon skin so soft work for mosquitos......think about that a minute!
 
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