My notes from Bob Fenner

[Llarian]

Sorry but Bob does not know what he is talking about. I think you might try running that past Dr. Randy Holmes Farley he will have a good laugh. Wait, I'll send it to him

hehe. Just passing along because I wanted clarification on what he meant. I'm not about to stop dosing kalk because of his opinion. =)

-Dylan

 

[Llarian]

Also, I've noticed in my tank (Kalk dosing only for Ca/Alk) that Ca is very low compared to Alk (partially due to my IO salt I suspect) and the Kalk does little to change that. Although I'm testing the kalk + acetic acid thing right now.

Of course, anecdote != data. =)

-Dylan

 

[Boomer]

No, it is not unbalanced it is balanced. Kalk is a balanced sup. Balanced sup are kalk, reactors and two-part sup. There really is not such thing as any sup givng a perfect balance. Your alk drop is normal, as alk is used up faster and is much lower proportionally to Ca or Mg. It is slao buffering te water to help keep the pH up.


How it is balanced

Ca(OH)2 + H20--->Ca + OH- + CO2 ---> Ca + HCO3-

or

Ca(OH)2 + H2O---> Ca +OH- + HCO3- ---> Ca + CO3-- + H2O

In these reactions you are producing an equal amount of buffer and Ca


When Do Calcium and Alkalinity Demand Not Exactly Balance?
http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2004-12/rhf/index.php

 

[NaH2O]

Bob just said "IF it is good enough to drink, it is good enough for corals". If it is that bad, it is NOT good enough to drink. If you would not use it for your animals, you surely should not use it for yourself.

I would think acceptable water standards for humans are quite different than a reef tank. What about places with copper in their water? I drink the water out of my tap just fine, and out of the filtered refrigerator dispenser, too, however, when trying to keep input impurities to a minimum (same with phosphate inputs) why not take the extra step and make sure the water is the best it can be? With so many sources of potential phosphate inputs or other undesirable impurities, then I think using RO/DI is one way to have some type of control over them.

 

[mojoreef]

You have to understand that at Wetweb media they tend to have a ton of new users and from my experence water chemistry is a tough one. Alot of folks tend to dose kalk and forget about all the other elements required, been thier, lol.
From reading his reply is he not just saying its a better idea to touch up your change water water (make it all proper levels) then to dose kalk?? looking at that from the point of view of a newbie seems pretty logical. For those with high demads on cal and alk thier just not as feesable.

or am I missing something here???


Mike

 

[Llarian]

Nope, I think you're interpreting his response correctly.

I don't agree with it at all, now that I think about it, but I suppose it makes sense from a newbie perspective.

-Dylan

 

[MikeS]

The main thing I don't like about that statement is that it appears to me (whether he meant to or not) to paint the use of Kalk in a somewhat overly negative light. I do agree, however, that when using kalk, or any other Ca/Alk suppliment for that matter, that it is important to monitor these levels on a regular basis. I've used kalk for over 5 years now, yes, it can lower Mg, but regualr water changes, and with the occasional test and tweek of Mg levels, I've had no problems whatsoever with it. Perhaps the importance of testing and monitoring these levels when using kalk should have been more prominately stated rather than painting kalk as a potential negative.

MikeS

 

[Boomer]

Mike and Mike

All that you say is ture to a point. Mg can get low if you are not watching things.

My real issue was this nonsense;

Put another way, the addition of calcium, bound up with a hydroxyl (or oxide) to the exclusion of a source
of other alkaline earth matter, materials for off-setting reserve of carbonate, bicarbonate (borate and a bit more), results in ones system, slanting,
sloping toward a chemical make-up that is less and less useful to biomineralizing life.

The OH in kalk is converted to bicarb or carb, so it is the same as adding baking soda or washing soda, so how can it off set the reserve :lol: That is shown by the equations I posted, although I should have left out the H2O, as the kalk is really not reacting with H2O here. The water just casues it to break apart..... disassociate. With kalk you end up with Ca ++ and CO3-- or HCO3-, where these last two can combine with CO2 and remove it from the system. And Randy's reply to the above "Bob" says it makes no sense, for the same reason I gave and what the reactions I posted show

As you guys seem to know you have to look at the demand of the system and take proper action. I think Bob needs to read some of Randy's articles.

 

[mojoreef]

Hey Boomer I have always heard of some carbonate systems not being as relient or as usuable as others. I have to admit I am clueless as to the depths of that arguement. Do you have any info on that??


MIke

 

[cheeks69]

AFA the tap water issue I agree with Bob. I have been using tap water for fresh and salt for close to 5 years without ANY problems but I guess in many areas that just not feasible. AFA the kalk I disagree but also have noticed that alk/mag becomes a little low so I have to supplement.

A friend of mine from a Portuguese forum just came back from Germany and Coral prop farms also DON'T use any kalk just calcium reactors. He told me the reason is they get much more growth with PO4 levels 0,5 and nitrates in 0,05 range.

 

[Boomer]

Mike

That may make sense depending on what they are talking about. Without knowing I'm as clueless as you. If they were talking about a reactor system and needed it sup'd with kalk or other two--part sup's that is easy to understand. Maybe they mean the uptake of Mg by corals when they use kalk, sometimes with a rise in Ca and they do not sup for Mg the uptake. Reactors with low Mg can do the same thing. Look at some of Craig's old articles.

Bob

What do they use ?

 

[cheeks69]

Bob

What do they use ?

Are you talking to me Boomer ?

They use Calcium Reactors and supplements no kalk.

Here's a link to some pictures of the prop farms http://www.reefforum.net/photopost/showgallery.php/cat/509

 

[BlueZooAquatics]

2. If you drink your tap water, its safe for your reef tank. Tap water is 99% of the time incorectly blamed for tank issues. This is comming from a guy who lives in southern cali with REALLY bad tap water.

OK so the TDS meter on my RO unit in Corona, Calif telling me that my tapwater is 680 TDS is ok to put in my tank?
I have never lived anywhere in S. Calif. that had water safe enough to put into a reef because of the chlorine, nitrate, phosphates and other junk that shows up in the water.

That's some advice I would seriously advise against following!!!!!!

 

[kcharm]

OK so the TDS meter on my RO unit in Corona, Calif telling me that my tapwater is 680 TDS is ok to put in my tank?
I have never lived anywhere in S. Calif. that had water safe enough to put into a reef because of the chlorine, nitrate, phosphates and other junk that shows up in the water.

That's some advice I would seriously advise against following!!!!!!

I wasn't able to go to the talk either, but, from what's been reported here, I'd say Bob would agree that using your water in a reef would be a bad idea.

I was born and raised in SoCal and even drinking the water is iffy. At some point, I'll get around to testing my tap water and will consider using it in my tank. I will not, however, simply assume that it's good enough. If the water params are fine...I'll stop buying RODI water. If I ever move back to SoCal, I'll buy an RODI unit just for my drinking water!

 

[MikeS]

AFA the tap water issue I agree with Bob. I have been using tap water for fresh and salt for close to 5 years without ANY problems but I guess in many areas that just not feasible.

I would agree, I'd imagine that this depends greatly on what your local water is like. Where I live, it's horrid...400+ TDS, Chloramine, lots of phosphate, nitrate, silica, copper, ect, ect....back in my FO days one of the best things I did was stop using it in favor of RO water...algae and cyano problems I had fought for years disappeared in short order with no other major changes to my tank. Can you use treated tap water? Sure...I know many from the BB's that do with no problems. Should you? Here we get into that grey area...to me, why add excess nutirents, metals, ect to your system if you don't have to? RO units are really not that expensive or hard to use, and you in most cases end up reducing the total amount of nutrients added to the system, making the battle of nutrient management that much easier...

MikeS

 

[steve-s]

my tapwater is 680 TDS

Hehe... doesn't mud clog the plumbing.. :lol:

Cheers
Steve