New DIY LED build

[Darthv247]

the radeon units put out a lot of light ? they seem to be pretty weak for the price.

Id have to say the most appealing and intriguing thing in LED's these days is the full spectrum control. seems you can hit every wavelength with them. cant wait for the next few generation of units to come out and be tested.

Keep up the good work guys ! carry on.

 

[mojoreef]

Yea that nice software, although the lighting scares the crap out of the fish, lol me to... But 38 leds for 750 bucks? Unless it cooks me dinner and makes my bed I just cant justify that kind of cost. I would need six of them to cover what I have covered on mine and that would cost like 4500, triple mine??

Mojo

 

[BryNik]

Hi folks. Our 46g mixed reef started April this year is among the increasingly common breed of reef aquarium that's never seen anything BUT led illumination. I've never used a turn-key, store bought LED fixture and have experimented extensively with color mixing, color temps, total output, optics and brands/types of LED. I've never used small (1-3w) diodes because I figure expense and complexity heavily in choosing components. It's just cheaper and simpler to use larger and fewer diodes powered by common voltages (12V) and dimmed by common, cheap and simple Pulsewidth Modulated controllers. To be perfectly honest; my corals have suffered from all the tinkering, but I report no losses in the last 6 months. Some species thrive on. One thing I really DON't like about CREE emitters is the lack of deep blue. Not quantity of blue, but the wavelengths offered. I'd also (judging by your sketch, Mojo) urge you to add near-UV leds in 395-405nm at a ratio of about 1/10 to other wavelengths and dump the red and green in favor of replacing some CW for warmer whites, somewhere around 5500-6500k (daylight). Reds and greens, while you'd think they'd round out the apparent color appeal, just grow nuisance algae. I'm not the first to observe this. Hope this helps.

 

[Boomer]

Mojo

But 38 leds for 750 bucks? Unless it cooks me dinner and makes my bed I just cant justify that kind of cost.

That is just the light fixture. There is only 34 LEDS = ~120W , ~ 12 " x 7 " and throw in the controller and is more like ~$1,000 with S & H. Not me

 

[mojoreef]

Not quantity of blue, but the wavelengths offered. I'd also (judging by your sketch, Mojo) urge you to add near-UV leds in 395-405nm at a ratio of about 1/10 to other wavelengths and dump the red and green in favor of replacing some CW for warmer whites, somewhere around 5500-6500k (daylight). Reds and greens, while you'd think they'd round out the apparent color appeal, just grow nuisance algae. I'm not the first to observe this. Hope this helps.

BryNik thanks for jumping in. I am open to all input, I just like to understand it a bit better. So on the concept of leds in the lets say UV zone whats the purpose their?? On the reds and green I dont see a correlation to algae?? specially the greens?? Can you elaborate a little for me?? On the higher voltage emitters, I had a hell of a time just figuring out the 3 watt jobs, but in conversation with Sanjay and Dana it was based on their recommendation, as I am not very bright when it comes to the deep electrical stuff, thats why I always carry my sidekick Boomer with me where ever I go, lol

Mojo

 

[Boomer]

Bry

I agree on all the above but this / say

It's just cheaper and simpler to use larger and fewer diodes powered by common voltages (12V)

You will find many with issues with this, as the LED are often spaced further apart and can not get the right cone-angle for the wanted foot-print. And what LED are using ? Multichips are not that good at all yet, Sanjay has proven that, not that there is not single chip HO LED, like Luminus, SST-50 and SST-90. When you start to ramp up Amps and W there is a drop in Efficacy often, i.e, the same exact LED, 5 Watt @ 500 l = 100 l / W and at 15 Watt @ 1150 l = 75 l /W. Your power meter outside is gong to be spinning and by the end of the year you have lost money not gained money. So, it is not cheaper in the long run.

 

[Frankie]

What is the current draw on each LED. I believe you said Cree 3 W, which ones, as they are not all the same and what is the Lumen rating at X Amps. More than likely the Cree's are around and no more than 160 l / W or a total of around 216 Cree's x 3 = 648 W and 216 Cree's x 160 l ea. = ~ 35,000 l and 35,000 l / 648 W = ~ 53 l / W efficacy. A std MH @ 400W = 36,00 - 40,000 l where e = 90 - 100 l / W and 2 - 250W MH about the same as 1 400W MH .

Just what I was thinking Boomer.

 

[TJL]

It seems we are still trying compare LED's to MH's in a Apples to Oranges kind of way again. On another forum I was checking out these Tomato* growers were growing 4 plants under a 1000w MH with a large 48"-60"? reflector and were able to switch to using just four 60w LED Grow Light panels getting comparable quality/quantity harvests. So back to what usable light is being produced (PUR) per watt would IMHO be a much better comparable.

SIMPLE OPINION BASED SAME-WATTAGE DIY LIGHTING COMPARISON USING MY 60X24X20 125G AQUARIUM

* I'll be incorporating 84 various colored 3w LED's for a total of 252 watts in approx footprint of 18"x54" = outstanding full coverage lighting w/ low heat output $650-ish

Option #2 The best electronic/digital 250w MH ballast paired with a double ended 250w HQI lamp 14-15K = great lighting in half my tank w/ high heat output $350-ish +$80/yr

Option #3 Double up on option #2 or a dual 250w ballast = great full coverage lighting w/ high heat output $700-ish +$160/yr



More food for thought... Cheers, Todd

 

[Boomer]

LED's to MH's in a Apples to Oranges kind of way again

I depends on how owe want to look at that

tomato* growers were growing 4 plants under a 1000w MH with a large 48"-60"? reflector and were able to switch to using just four 60w LED Grow Light panels getting comparable quality/quantity harvests

"a", 1 1000 W MH. Why not 2 -500's or 4 - 250's ? What MH where they using ? I'll bet you a years salary they were not Iwasaki's. What was the K of these lamps, how where they mounted Horiz. or Vert and where they Mogul or DE and what kind of reflector ? So, you here are comparing Apples and Oranges just on the MH set-up. I will also bet that 2 - 400 W Iwasaki 6.5 KL lamps would darf the PAR output of those LED and growth rate.

+$80/yr

What is this MH bulb replace I will assume, as PAR and K loss over the time of a year ? And are you assuming Hi-tech LEDS/ fixtures do not go bad ? What do you do if you buy one and have send it in for warranty to get the LED replaced ? Then what for your tank, a stand-by light fixture, @ $$$.

More food for thought

OH, allot more food for thought here for sure on LED vs MH. Lets see if soembody can get the right answer, when it comes to total cost of x, y or z over a year

Just being DA again

 

[BryNik]

I agree with your earlier statement about using different LEDs to 'round out' the available spectrums. If you look at the spectrograph of the white LED; you see that it puts out more light over a wider useful spectrum than the Halide. If you use colored LEDs, their outputs are extremely (unnaturally) narrow in bandwidth. As it was pointed out earlier; some types of chlorophyll fluoresce at different frequencies. Unless you know which corals have said pigments and seek out very specific bins of diodes; you may or may not "hit" them and end up delivering an endless supply of food for one of the hundreds of species of nasty pest algae in your tank that DOES have it.. The fluorescent chlorophylls are secondary. They just convert unusable wavelengths of light (by fluorescing them) to useful wavelengths for metabolizing. Your Chlorophyll A responds to light in the near-UV spectrum, while B likes blue around 450nm. Importantly, human eyes also respond to these frequencies in odd ways. It makes our critters happy and looks really neat to us. If you use wider spectrum (white diodes of different bins) to fill in the other wavelengths; you hit all the sweet spots.

As far as bigger diodes; the first reason I use them is that most of them are usefully driven to 12VDC. How many big, cheap, reliable power supplies can you think of that put out primarily 12VDC? Most of them. Big PC power supplies can put out over 24 amps of it. Automotive battery chargers can put out 200 amps of it easily. Almost all electronic devices are powered by DC and have a power supply to rectify it. I run a max of 120 watts at 12VDC. The only power supply I use is a big, quality PC (I'm talking computer) power supply and it has its' own cooling fan and owner serviceable circuit protection. I don't like the idea of using a brick encased in plastic without active cooling to supply that much current. The folks at Meanwell are making a killing convincing people that disaster will strike if their drivers are not used. Everyone comments about the "runaway current" that can occur with improperly driven LEDs. Well, if you wire 12V LEDs in parallel to a 12VDC power supply; you will never exceed their current rating. If one burns out, voltage never appreciably changes. I also challenge Meanwell to match the surge and ripple characteristics of a computer power supply. Look at the output of even a bargain basement PC supply on an oscilloscope and it's almost indiscernible from pure DC. You have to buy 1/3 the diodes, 1/3 the optics, solder 1/3 as many connections, etc. for the same light output. The dimmers are cheap as well, and some are even PLC compatible, of which I have five:

one for the cooling fans (also 12VDC computer items)
one for blues
one for the 100w white LED (6000K)
and one each for the reds and greens (which are not used anymore)

As far as manufacturers; I'd look at Edistar and Epileds. They both make good usable diodes for reefing and have good product documentation. Especially Epileds, In my opinion. Gotta go; have new LR and critters to acclimate!

 

[Guerry]

this is my input on power savings for the Apples to Oranges debate, I have been running 144 three watt LED fixture for almost a year now. I used two 250 watt and two 400 watt MH setups before this along with a 1/3 hp chiller. My power savings are right at $75. per month and it would be time to order 4 new bulbs @ about $75. per bulb. The leds are run at 40% and have higher par readings at this level than the MHs and I have great coral growth and colors. I'm not here to push leds on anyone, I'm just stating my results

One other thing to add on my savings, I live in south GA. an don't need MH to heat my house we use A/C 75% of the year and my unit doesn't have to work near as hard with the leds

 

[mojoreef]

I agree with your earlier statement about using different LEDs to 'round out' the available spectrums. If you look at the spectrograph of the white LED; you see that it puts out more light over a wider useful spectrum than the Halide. If you use colored LEDs, their outputs are extremely (unnaturally) narrow in bandwidth. As it was pointed out earlier; some types of chlorophyll fluoresce at different frequencies. Unless you know which corals have said pigments and seek out very specific bins of diodes; you may or may not "hit" them and end up delivering an endless supply of food for one of the hundreds of species of nasty pest algae in your tank that DOES have it.. The fluorescent chlorophylls are secondary. They just convert unusable wavelengths of light (by fluorescing them) to useful wavelengths for metabolizing. Your Chlorophyll A responds to light in the near-UV spectrum, while B likes blue around 450nm. Importantly, human eyes also respond to these frequencies in odd ways. It makes our critters happy and looks really neat to us. If you use wider spectrum (white diodes of different bins) to fill in the other wavelengths; you hit all the sweet spots.

Good stuff! I understand your logic and it makes sense but their is a little more info to take in mind. Chlorophyll's are one of the pigments found inside Zoox (you might see a tiny bit in the corals tissue but its rare) they actually use a more narrow band which almost all LEDS have covered to excess, so we are good their. The balance of the pigments are actually in the tissue of coral and work to absorb unusable light waves and then fluoresce a more usuable light, but here we are talking hundreds of pigments that all excite at different frequencies so it would be hard to miss. Although I do take stock in the different bins for better coverage. On the algae I am still having a hard time with that one, if you were to break down the different things algae needs to grow in your tank (as in N, P and Light) light takes up a very small percentage of that and can not have any effect unless the other two are present in more then average concentrations. If you look at the light reefers have used for years, such as MH, PC's and other tubes they all have big waves in the red zones and yet no real arguement right? To me algae is and has always been an issue of slack husbandry or a poorly designed system.

Good stuff all I like the conversation


Mojo

 

[TJL]

Definitely 'Good Stuff' conversation wise guys, a whole bunch of opinions and enough tech to balance it out... or enough opinion to take the boring out of to much tech-talk. Either way all is good stuff. Thanks for your inputs Guerry and BryNik. This has been enlightening to say the least and have had a blast playing Dualing DA's with ya Boomer, I actually love the crisp blue-white look of quality MH's in the 12-15K range and is why I have spent sooo many hours researching LED's to get an equivalent overall spectral match to a Phoenix 14K lamp. The +$'s are exactly that, anual bulb replacement and my Comparison's were for DIY builds so diode replacement would not be a big issue just a little PITA (I have 4 extra chips in reserve). My comparison is PUR/watt so 800-1000 watts of quality MH better out perform 252 watts of LED in a HUGE way to justify its excessive costs in power consumption, bulb replacement and neccessary need for cooling. 800-1000 watts of LED would cook everything in my tank, even only 252 watts will need a slow acclimation period for my livestock to adapt. I am looking into the White LED's on the link you provided earlier with the crystal lenses, seems they do a great job in widening the spectrum output. Anywho.. thanks guys gotta go now... off to hit the river for some more Coho action.

Cheers, Todd

 

[Boomer]

Bry

I will admit that is a very good idea running them on DC power supplies.

the only power supply I use is a big, quality PC (I'm talking computer) power supply and it has its' own cooling fan and owner serviceable circuit protection.

Yes, they do I have 1,000W in mine.


Gurrey

That was my point above on cost OH, allot more food for thought here for sure on LED vs MH. Lets see if somebody can get the right answer, when it comes to total cost of x, y or z over a year

I live in N-Minnesota where the annual mean temp is 43 F, Lake Superior Effect. I do not need a chiller and LED will run up a power bill from all the extra heaters I would need vs that for MH, acting as heaters. I love LED and do not dislike them but so far for most that buy "store" bought LED for a home display they are still kinda pricey, which has been my point all along.

Todd

My comparison is PUR/watt so 800-1000 watts of quality MH better out perform 252 watts of LED in a HUGE way to justify its excessive costs

Here you are again with Apple & Oranges which you do not like to do. Why on earth are you trying to compare 800 -100 W which you say is over kill vs 225 W of LED and why not 400 W of MH or 600 W to make a point.

Everybody here keeps throwing out PAR/PUR with no real data on LED vs MH, i.e showing that PAR with specular distribution at x depth of water. Where is Sanjay when I need him

I do not know if any of you have seen it yet but the Sept-Oct issue Of Coral magazine is dedicated to LED's

 

[BryNik]

I gotta find a copy of that, Boomer!

Like Guerry said:

"I have been running 144 three watt LED fixture for almost a year now. The leds are run at 40% and have higher par readings at this level than the MHs and I have great coral growth and colors."

Glad to hear of your success! Bear with me here, You probably got a better deal than what I've found, but;
144x3=432 watts. 40% of 432 = 172.8 watts. @~10w/diode (we'll make an allowance for the decreased efficiency of the high output LEDs) 20x10w LEDs will put out approximately the same PAR (wide open) @ ~$10 per diode, shipped, for a $200 total diode budget. In comparison, 144x say, $6 shipped for CREE XR-E diodes= $864? Wow. You've got headroom there for more light, but will you ever use it? When everything is wired parallel; it's easy to add a couple diodes for a bit more light. As far as color mixing and light cones; I prefer tighter optics further away from the surface. 4' over the surface mixes colors nicely with parabolic reflectors stolen from cheap flashlights.

 

[BryNik]

I don't know which LEDs Sanjay tested, but recently the multichip LEDs have gotten far better than what was available only a few months ago.

 

[Boomer]

Yah, but I do not remember either but yes LED change by the day it seems. And just so all know, the English version of Corals is like 6 mothns behind the Germany one. I mean there are 3 other issue out in German and this Sept/Oct LED issue is really like their March-April issue.

 

[wld1783]

Hi

I'm new here so forgive the multiple posts... Tried to post some pics.

IMHO Its best to compare MH to LEDs.

Bill

 

[wld1783]

Hi

I'm new here so forgive the multiple posts... Tried to post some pics.

IMHO Its best to compare MH to LEDs.

Bill

Based on my PAR Testing and Optics 24 LED is the rough equivalent of a 175-250 watt MH

Bill

 

[wld1783]

Based on my PAR Testing and Optics use 24 LED is the rough equivalent of a 175-250 watt MH

Bill

Yes...Rough equivalent....Many factors but hopefully I can post PICs now.